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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Changes needed in "moved" topic interface (Read 8,703 times)
cepheid
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Re: Changes needed in "moved" topic interface
Reply #23 - Jun 15th, 2009 at 2:50am
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deti, it looks like the Moved-Info posts are showing up in the Most Recent list (action=recent).  Based on all the stuff above, we are not considering these to be "real" posts, so they should not appear in the Most Recent list.  (For example, look at the top 20 most recent posts on this forum.)

I would recommend updating the action=recent event to ignore the Moved-Info posts.

(I do understand that having them in the Most Recent list tells people that the topic was moved, but IMHO the Most Recent list is for "real" posts, so it should not include the Moved-Info posts.)
  
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Re: Changes needed in "moved" topic interface
Reply #22 - May 24th, 2009 at 11:46pm
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Hmmm, I thought about this, but doesn't look good for me and then I thought, if someone doesn't know what to do with this checkbox, he will hopefully click it twice just for fun and see the alert, or he will last with his mouse over it thinking about for what it is and then see the upcoming title Grin I'm full of hope! Grin We'll see Smiley
  

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cepheid
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Re: Changes needed in "moved" topic interface
Reply #21 - May 24th, 2009 at 11:39pm
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Thanks deti - you're really on top of things today! Smiley  You don't want to add a tiny text to the checkbox like "Info post" or something, rather than making it a bare checkbox with the info only in the title tag?

I'm probably OK either way, and I understand you don't want to clutter up the mod functions since there's a lot of stuff there already... but maybe 1 or 2 words would be good.

Thanks! Smiley
  
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deti
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Re: Changes needed in "moved" topic interface
Reply #20 - May 24th, 2009 at 11:32pm
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Point 6) and 7) fixed.

New
Languages\English\MessageIndex.lng

Sources\MessageIndex.pl

in CVS.

I removed the JS-confirm box and add a checkbox between "Move to:" and the select field. In the title of the checkbox is written: "Double click this checkbox for more info about its function." If you do this a JS-alert opens with the info: "Check this box to include a New Post at the end of the Topic being Moved. This Post will show the info from where the Thread came and who moved it. Uncheck it to Move without a New Post included."
The box is unchecked by default. We can add a admin-preselection for this later if really required, but for the moment I think this is enough.
  

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cepheid
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Re: Changes needed in "moved" topic interface
Reply #19 - May 24th, 2009 at 10:04pm
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deti wrote on May 24th, 2009 at 3:22pm:
I must admit, your are right.

Well, I see OH's point... (see replies below).  But, I'm glad I convinced you, and yes, if nobody else finds it logical but me, then it can be changed back.

deti wrote on May 24th, 2009 at 3:22pm:
To your point 5): I fixed that already in CVS without commenting it before.

Sweet, thanks. Smiley  Which way did you fix it, by making the radio button unselected, or having the JS function auto-select the Move button?

deti wrote on May 24th, 2009 at 3:22pm:
Point 6) I know, will look at it when I get time.

OK; if I get a chance to try and fix it first, I'll submit a patch.

deti wrote on May 24th, 2009 at 3:22pm:
Can you think on another solution?

That does bring up a good point - we don't have mods on our board, just one admin, so I wasn't thinking about how this affects other mods' style of moderation.

Adding an individual checkbox to each user (visible only for those who are mods/gmods/admins, of course) could be doable, but yes, it requires more work to change than the pop-up does.

The only other ways I can think of doing it are:
1) Add a checkbox next to the drop-down menu (destination forum); the checkbox is "Add info post to moved thread."  If checked, the info post is added; if unchecked, no info post.  The default setting for the checkbox could be settable in the Admin Center or individually in the user profile.

Or

2) Add an interstitial Move page... remove the destination drop-down entirely.  Then, when a user selects move, the next page allows selection of the destination forum, whether or not to add an info post, any anything else applicable.  This would play nicely with my proposed "expiring Moved-Info placeholder" suggestion for YaBB 3, too.

OH Eng wrote on May 24th, 2009 at 8:11pm:
You're implying only YOUR way is the intuitive way.It isn't.

I guess I was implying my way was the most intuitive way... but yes, you're right.  I do see your point.

OH Eng wrote on May 24th, 2009 at 8:11pm:
So because another software does it, that means we should also or we're "wrong?"

No, of course not - that's why I qualified it, "for what it's worth."  I was just offering it as an example in support of my suggestion.  You are correct that it doesn't make YaBB "wrong" to not do it.

OH Eng wrote on May 24th, 2009 at 8:11pm:
not all logic is the same as you see it.

That will all change after my plans for world domination come to fruition... Wink

OH Eng wrote on May 24th, 2009 at 8:11pm:
If it's as logical and intuitive as you claim, why would anyone report a bug?

I don't think they would... but then, people report non-bugs as bugs all the time, so yeah, someone will inevitably report it.

OH Eng wrote on May 24th, 2009 at 8:11pm:
Well you have your opinion, I have mine.

And we clearly disagree, and that's OK.  I do see your point, and I can understand wanting to leave it the way it is.  I'm not going to press more on the subject...

Turns out deti already changed it, but even if it gets changed back, I won't press more.  I see your point.
« Last Edit: May 24th, 2009 at 10:05pm by cepheid »  
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deti
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Re: Changes needed in "moved" topic interface
Reply #18 - May 24th, 2009 at 9:15pm
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@ OH Eng

Don't worry that I made it "logical" now. If we get too much requests about this I can change it back easily in the following release.
But I am confident that not too much users will have Moved-Info alone in their boards, so probably nobody will notice it anyway. Wink
  

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OH Eng
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Re: Changes needed in "moved" topic interface
Reply #17 - May 24th, 2009 at 8:11pm
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cepheid wrote on May 24th, 2009 at 5:08am:
I'm not splitting hairs, I'm pointing out things that I consider inconsistent and unintuitive in the interface.  It's not that there's a "big deal" - clearly, I live with it as-is right now - but I think that my suggestions would be an improvement in terms of making the interface more consistent, more intuitive, and IMHO less confusing.


Your comments say otherwise.  You're implying only YOUR way is the intuitive way.  It isn't.

Quote:
For what it's worth, other forum software (e.g. vBulletin) does not tread Moved-Info placeholders as threads - they are placeholders only and do not count towards thread or post numbers.  I find that to be the more intuitive method.


So because another software does it, that means we should also or we're "wrong?"

Quote:
I find it strange that someone would agree with the other changes proposed above but disagree with this one, because they all follow logically from one another.  If you're going to make the Moved-Info placeholder count as a thread/post, that philosophy fits better with the way things used to be before the changes above were made.
I'm trying to help.


They all follow logically - meaning in your logic.  I am looking at it more globally by considering how ALL users might apply logic to this, and though you might not like it, not all logic is the same as you see it.

I am trying to help also.  I'm telling you that I've answered questions from users who consider the way YaBB "does things" is a Bug because "back on my _____ forum it's done a different way."  We change it, then along comes another user who sees it and thinks, "that's not very logical," and requests a change back to the way it was long before they ever downloaded the software.

Quote:
I should also point out that omitting a feature change just because "someone" might (wrongfully!) point it out as a bug is not, in my opinion, a good philosophy.


Exactly.  That's why I consider what experience has taught me how users will react rather than considering only your idea of what logic is.  It's not logical to have a topic, with what appears to be a post in it, and have the index counts show 0, 0.  To most people, 0 represents nothing there, but something IS there.  You're splitting hairs by wanting to define it as a post or not a post; I'm saying the average user won't go to that depth of definition.  They will see a topic, one "something" in it, and report a bug that the counts show 0, 0 instead of - "logically" - 1, 1.

Quote:
If someone points it out as a bug, that someone can be educated as to why it's more logical the way that it's done.


If it's as logical and intuitive as you claim, why would anyone report a bug?

Quote:
However, I really don't think anyone will point it out as a bug, because it's quite clear the Moved-Info thread isn't "something," it's merely a placeholder.


Well you have your opinion, I have mine.  Mine is based on answering and explaining these exact situations to users here in the support boards.  What is yours based on?  Interesting that you'd say "someone can be educated as to why" it's done that way.  You don't seem very accepting when one of those is explained to you.

But hey, change it to whatever you want.  Just be sure to update all the documentation for it.
  

 
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deti
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Re: Changes needed in "moved" topic interface
Reply #16 - May 24th, 2009 at 3:22pm
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cepheid wrote on May 24th, 2009 at 5:08am:
I find it strange that someone would agree with the other changes proposed above but disagree with this one, because they all follow logically from one another.

I must admit, your are right.

New
Admin\Maintenance.pl

Sources\Display.pl
Sources\Favorites.pl
Sources\MoveSplitSplice.pl
Sources\Notify.pl
Sources\RemoveTopic.pl
Sources\Security.pl
Sources\Subs.pl
Sources\System.pl

in CVS.

Lets see what the users say, we will have to explain it to them if they ask.

To your point 5): I fixed that already in CVS without commenting it before. Wink
If you want to help testing, see this thread: http://www.yabbforum.com/community/YaBB.pl?num=1225634635

Point 6) I know, will look at it when I get time.

Point 7) Hmmmm, not only admins move topics, Gmods and Mods can do that too. I sometimes use the OK and sometimes the Cancel depending on if I want the users to know who has moved the thread. I often use Cancel but I know other moderators here on this forum use more often OK then Cancel. So I think it's an individual setting. Of course we could make it individually selectable in the users profile, but what must I do when I want ot change my setting for one move? I must go to my profile, log in there, change it, save it, go back to the thread, move it and then go back all the way Cheesy Isn't that even more annoying? Wink
Can you think on another solution? You are welcome.
  

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cepheid
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Re: Changes needed in "moved" topic interface
Reply #15 - May 24th, 2009 at 12:27pm
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OK, found two more bugs and another usability issue...

5) In a board which is marked as "global announcements," when viewing the board listing (thread index), the "Remove" radio button is pre-selected.  If I want to move a thread, I select the "Move to" radio button... no problems yet.  Now, I select the destination forum from the drop-down menu.  I get a Javascript alert() pop-up asking whether to append a moved-info post to the thread... and now, the radio button is back to "Remove" again!

The expected behavior would be that the radio button remains on whatever was already selected; in the above case, it should remain on "Move to:" and should not reset to "Remove."  Alternatively, if you change the destination forum using the drop-down, "Move to:" should be automatically selected if it was not already selected.

So, the fix: either
a) fix the Javascript alert() so that it does not change which radio button is selected; or
b) fix the alert() so that it automatically selects the "Move to:" radio button, since nobody will be changing the destination forum unless they intend to move the thread anyway.

In a regular board (not a "global announcements" board), there is no pre-selected radio button, and this bug does not occur... the "Move to:" button remains clicked even after the alert.

My preferred solution would be (b), because it saves the admin an extra click, but (a) is sufficient.  Actually, I would also change it so that the "Remove" button is not pre-selected even for "global announcement" boards... that would also solve this.  Option (b) still provides a minor enhancement to the admin, though.



6) If I want to move a thread to the first forum in the destination menu, which is the default choice, I can't get the javascript alert() to show up allowing me to select whether or not to append the moved-info post.  The only way to get the pop-up is to change the destination forum in the menu, and then change it back.

Fix: reorder the code ... instead of the JS alert popping up when the forum is changed, have it pop up when the Go! button is clicked.  That is the intuitive place for it anyway.  This would require adding an onClick attribute to the Go! button and setting it to call the Javascript alert() that is now currently called when the menu selection changes, and removing the alert call from the menu itself.



7) That Javascript alert can get really annoying... most forum admins will either always select "yes" or will always select "no."  In my opinion, this shouldn't be done via Javascript, but should instead be a fixed option within the Admin Center... a checkbox entitled, "On thread move, append an info post to the thread?"  If checked, it would do exactly that; if unchecked, it would omit it.  This obviates the need for the Javascript alert.  Since most admins will always prefer one way or the other, I think a static checkbox will save them time and headache compared to clicking a JS alert each and every time.

(p.s. I am not trying to be a major pain in the rear... I'm trying to help improve the software via constructive criticism and what I hope are helpful suggestions.  I provide patches when I can but the codebase is relatively complex, so there's a limit to what I can churn out quickly.)
« Last Edit: May 24th, 2009 at 1:24pm by cepheid »  
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cepheid
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Re: Changes needed in "moved" topic interface
Reply #14 - May 24th, 2009 at 5:08am
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I'm not splitting hairs, I'm pointing out things that I consider inconsistent and unintuitive in the interface.  It's not that there's a "big deal" - clearly, I live with it as-is right now - but I think that my suggestions would be an improvement in terms of making the interface more consistent, more intuitive, and IMHO less confusing.

For what it's worth, other forum software (e.g. vBulletin) does not tread Moved-Info placeholders as threads - they are placeholders only and do not count towards thread or post numbers.  I find that to be the more intuitive method.

I find it strange that someone would agree with the other changes proposed above but disagree with this one, because they all follow logically from one another.  If you're going to make the Moved-Info placeholder count as a thread/post, that philosophy fits better with the way things used to be before the changes above were made.

While I'm very glad the above changes were put into place, omitting this last piece feels inconsistent and like we only went partway.  I would much rather we go all the way.  Don't get me wrong - I'm grateful that any changes were enacted.  I'd just prefer to see everything be consistent and I would not be doing my duty to the YaBB community if I did not submit my constructive criticism.  I'm trying to help.

I should also point out that omitting a feature change just because "someone" might (wrongfully!) point it out as a bug is not, in my opinion, a good philosophy.  If someone points it out as a bug, that someone can be educated as to why it's more logical the way that it's done.  However, I really don't think anyone will point it out as a bug, because it's quite clear the Moved-Info thread isn't "something," it's merely a placeholder.

But, I'm not a dev, so the final call is obviously with you guys.  I'm just suggesting what I think is the right way.  Until and unless I'm invited to the dev team, I can only make suggestions.
« Last Edit: May 24th, 2009 at 5:09am by cepheid »  
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Re: Changes needed in "moved" topic interface
Reply #13 - May 24th, 2009 at 2:13am
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You're splitting hairs.  If "something" is in there, even a redirect, what's the big deal if it shows 1 topic or 1 post?  Deti's right... next week another user will report it as a bug because the counts show 0 and "something" is in there.

Why not just consider what's left behind as an informational post and leave it as it sits with the update?

  

 
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Re: Changes needed in "moved" topic interface
Reply #12 - May 24th, 2009 at 1:59am
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deti wrote on May 24th, 2009 at 1:48am:
Yes, but it looks strange if it says that in the board is 1 "Topics" and 1 "Posts" (what is true) but then shows N/A for "Last Post"!?!

Quite true... but I think the preferred solution for that is to not count Moved-Info threads in the thread count or the post count... because they're not real threads or posts, just redirection/placeholder stubs.

So, I guess I would recommend fix #4: change the thread/post counting code to ignore Moved-Info threads (and the one post contained within).

That solves both problems...

deti wrote on May 24th, 2009 at 1:48am:
Don't tell me to put "Topics" and "Posts" to 0 if there are only one or more Moved-Infos in the board, because then the next will come and say this is a bug! Cheesy

Well, that's actually the solution I think is best... and if anyone reports it as a bug, they would be wrong!  The Moved-Info "thread" isn't a thread at all... it's just a placeholder with a redirect.  In fact, you usually can't even see the thread itself, because the board listing only contains a link to the new thread - there is no way to get to the original stub except via a direct link, and even then you've changed that now to automatically open the new thread.

So... since there's now NO way to see the Moved-Info thread itself, and all you can see in the board listing is a link to the new thread... then the Moved-Info "thread" isn't at all a thread but just a placeholder.  As such, it should not, IMHO, be counted as a thread.

I strongly recommend not counting the Moved-Info threads in the thread/post count for a board, per the above... I think you'll agree that this is the only logical solution.  If anyone reports it as a bug, they'd be wrong: it's not a bug, it's the intended behavior!  I doubt they would report it as a bug, though, because it's quite clear with the changes we've made here that the Moved-Info thread isn't a real thread anymore.
  
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Re: Changes needed in "moved" topic interface
Reply #11 - May 24th, 2009 at 1:48am
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cepheid wrote on May 24th, 2009 at 12:23am:
I presume your code skips all moved threads, if there is more than one at the top?

Yes, but it looks strange if it says that in the board is 1 "Topics" and 1 "Posts" (what is true) but then shows N/A for "Last Post"!?! I can hear the users posting here in "Bugs open": "This is a bug!" Wink Cheesy Smiley Do you have a better suggestion?
Don't tell me to put "Topics" and "Posts" to 0 if there are only one or more Moved-Infos in the board, because then the next will come and say this is a bug! Cheesy
  

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cepheid
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Re: Changes needed in "moved" topic interface
Reply #10 - May 24th, 2009 at 12:23am
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deti,

I think you should skip the Moved-Info in the "Last Post" column even if the Moved-Info is the only post in the board.  If the board is empty except for the Moved-Info, there are no "real" posts in the board and the board should show "N/A" for Last Post.  In my opinion...

I presume your code skips all moved threads, if there is more than one at the top?
  
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Re: Changes needed in "moved" topic interface
Reply #9 - May 23rd, 2009 at 7:31pm
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New
Setup.pl

Languages\English\Main.lng

Sources\Display.pl
Sources\MessageIndex.pl
Sources\ModifyMessage.pl
Sources\MoveSplitSplice.pl
Sources\RemoveTopic.pl
Sources\SetStatus.pl
Sources\Subs.pl
Sources\System.pl

In CVS.

- Skip Moved-Info in the "Last Post" column in the Boards Index (if Moved-Info isn't the only post in that board).
- The  title of the Moved-Info is now a link to the thread in the other board
- The link after "...has been moved to " is now a link to the new board, not to the thread as it was before
- Links to Moved-Infos are redirected to the moved thread.
- Code improvements to save file loading
« Last Edit: May 23rd, 2009 at 9:19pm by deti »  

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