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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) admin email incorrect after setup (Read 14,029 times)
deti
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Re: admin email incorrect after setup
Reply #21 - Jul 8th, 2009 at 7:43pm
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New
Setup.pl

Members/memberinfo.txt

in SVN.

@ cepheid
Can you test a clean install please? Thanks!
« Last Edit: Jul 8th, 2009 at 7:50pm by deti »  

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Re: admin email incorrect after setup
Reply #20 - Jul 8th, 2009 at 6:59pm
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Thanks deti.  Please see also Reply #3, there's a bug in how the admin displayname gets populated into memberinfo.txt.
  
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Re: admin email incorrect after setup
Reply #19 - Jul 8th, 2009 at 3:24pm
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New Setup.pl in SVN.

Language, email and time format are now overtaken from setup settings into the admin .vars file.
  

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Re: admin email incorrect after setup
Reply #18 - Jun 27th, 2009 at 4:10am
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OH Eng wrote on Jun 27th, 2009 at 2:05am:
Nothing nefarious about it.

Unfortunately YaBB does not say whether one is ignoring everyone or a specific user (which is probably for the best since it respects the user's privacy), so I had no way of knowing whether it was "nefarious" or not and thus decided not to make conjecture.

OH Eng wrote on Jun 27th, 2009 at 2:05am:
Ground to a halt... like these you mean?

Those are two examples where you supported the idea, although in the second case you started off by talking about banning AOL members, etc... which was not what I had stated in the OP.  It is things like your first post in that thread to which I am referring re: misunderstandings or bringing up issues which may not be relevant to the situation at hand; there have been more than just 2 threads where that has come up.

OH Eng wrote on Jun 27th, 2009 at 2:05am:
Or did you mean the other dozens of feature suggestions I didn't comment on?Or the other dozens over the years I have supported?

Please note that I didn't say you always shoot down my ideas or anyone else's ideas; I said you often did it, and I was referring specifically to my threads, which I think you'll find is the case if you care to review all the previous threads (which I am not suggesting you do - it obviously takes time and merely furthers this argument).

OH Eng wrote on Jun 27th, 2009 at 2:05am:
you will now be so kind as to gracefully tolerate it in some way as part of a "deal."

The deal isn't that I would gracefully accept it; the deal is that we would both word our objections more carefully so as not to come across so... harshly.  Constructive versus destructive criticism.  It is possible to get across the same message in a positive voice versus a negative one.

To take the IP-log thread as an example, in your very first post you said: "Does that mean you'd ban every AOL user?"  Instead of jumping right down my throat, you could instead have said, "There could be cases where changing IPs are perfectly normal; if you plan on using this to ban people, you should take that into consideration."  I hope you can see the difference between those two... in the first case, you immediately jump to a worst-case scenario sparked by a misunderstanding of my intent; in the second, you would politely state a possible problem without hyperbole and without jumping to any conclusions.

I don't think I'm thin-skinned - far from it - but the reason we're in this mess is because both of us are forceful about stating our opinions and we don't take guff from anyone.  I'm not saying we should sugarcoat our responses to one another; I'm saying that instead of saying something like, "That's a horrible idea because <X>," you could say, "<X> might cause a problem; what if we instead did <Y> ?"  That way you're also contributing to the solution instead of just shutting down the idea.

Yes, I could, and should, do the same.  And I've tried, such as by explaining that various preferences could be enabled or disabled by default, could be enabled or disabled by the admin, could be coded in a way that minimizes server impact, etc.  You didn't seem to like any of those alternatives.

OH Eng wrote on Jun 27th, 2009 at 2:05am:
I offer reasons why, I don't just say "bad idea."

Yes, but there's a difference between offering a reason, and offering a reason plus a thoughtful alternative.

OH Eng wrote on Jun 27th, 2009 at 2:05am:
To you, I guess that's lecturing

No, I have absolutely NO problem with being told something's wrong and why.  The "lecturing" refers to the sardonic and seemingly (even if that is not your intent) condescending tone of your message, not to its content.

OH Eng wrote on Jun 27th, 2009 at 2:05am:
you don't apparently want it the way I give it.

If you'd be willing to give it constructively, per the above, then I have no problems at all.  I would much rather be told there's a problem and offered an alternative suggestion that addresses the problem than be told there's a problem and "figure it out or don't do it."  I hope you can see what I mean here.

Please, DO comment on my suggestions, patches, or what-have-you.  I just ask that if you have objections or concerns that you either offer an alternative suggestion, or at the very least phrase your objections both constructively and without hyperbole.  Is that not a reasonable request?

Regardless, I think we should either take this to PM or drop it entirely, because this is clearly between the two of us and is of course completely off-topic from the original intent of this thread.  We've said our pieces... hopefully we can come to a mutual understanding that involves collaboration, not antagonism - on both sides.
« Last Edit: Jun 27th, 2009 at 4:14am by cepheid »  
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Re: admin email incorrect after setup
Reply #17 - Jun 27th, 2009 at 2:05am
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I would have taken the post below to PM, but could not, for reasons I will not state here.


I'll state it for you.  My PMs are off.  I get PM'ed constantly for support and question after question about how this works, how that works, etc.  by users who I ask to post in the boards, but some reason don't want to.  You know, my source of all those straw-man arguments I make?  So two nights ago I did what I periodically do... I turn PMs to "ignore all" to give myself a little sanity break from them.  Nothing nefarious about it.

Quote:
...if you try to help flesh out ideas rather than grinding them to a halt


Ground to a halt... like these you mean?
http://www.yabbforum.com/community/YaBB.pl?num=1244256890/#3
http://www.yabbforum.com/community/YaBB.pl?num=1242796371/#5

Or did you mean the other dozens of feature suggestions I didn't comment on?  Or the other dozens over the years I have supported?

I don't get to "grind" anything to a halt, I keep telling you that but I guess you think I pull levers behind the curtain or something.  All I can do is state an opinion and why, that's it.

I don't have to "deal" when I think something is a bad idea.  I already told you I have a reason when I state I don't think something is a good idea to be added to base code, or implement as described.  I feel no obligation to compromise what I think, especially when I'm told my input is on one hand "irrelevant" (assuming you mean the ones I was not confused on what you meant) and "a straw man argument," and on the other hand that you will now be so kind as to gracefully tolerate it in some way as part of a "deal."

I state my opinions factually when options are posted for consideration.  I offer reasons why, I don't just say "bad idea."  To you, I guess that's lecturing, but to me it isn't meant to be a lecture, it's meant to give the reader an idea of why I think as I do.  I don't make the decisions here; I can only give an input.  When I spot something that I believe will cause problems down the road, I will speak up.  Except for your suggestions, since you don't apparently want it the way I give it.  I've met many people in my time who don't like to learn from the mistakes of others or believe others when they have experienced the consequences of another like decision made on a different day.  You may be one of those, I don't know you well enough to tell, and if so it's probably best to just let you make the same mistakes in order that they become valid to you.


  

 
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Re: admin email incorrect after setup
Reply #16 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 11:52pm
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(I would have taken the post below to PM, but could not, for reasons I will not state here.  If the moderators, including OH Eng, feel that this argument does not belong here, please feel free to delete it in its entirety.  I would have taken it to PM if I could have.)

OH Eng wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 11:26pm:
including that you think it ought to be coded in PHP

That was a question for discussion, not a declaration.  I don't think it is me who is distorting reality.

OH Eng wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 11:26pm:
You never ask why something is the way it is, only that "it's wrong" without any other consideration or any other input.

I think you are deliberately misrepresenting things here, including the use of such broad generalities as "never" and "any."  I take plenty of consideration of other input and ideas.  If I recall correctly, it is you who often (I won't say "always") criticizes a number of suggestions based on problems that are either irrelevant to the situation, entirely avoidable via preferences, or entirely hypothetical because no implementation had even been decided.

OH Eng wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 11:26pm:
And you've been around here what, 2 months?

I've been around for a number of years, if you look at my join date, and I helped fix the captcha issue with v2.1.  I only recently became much more active, but I've been around and using YaBB for quite some time.  Before you joined the forum, in fact, for whatever that's worth.

OH Eng wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 11:26pm:
Like spending time formatting HTML when "the plan" is to do it all over again later.

I've already explained myself on that one, but I'll do it again: it took 5 minutes, and the HTML template will very likely be built from the existing code... at least, that's my prediction, but I'm not the one doing it, so I could be wrong.

OH Eng wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 11:26pm:
who knows, we haven't seen much but promises out of you

While I certainly haven't written hundreds of lines of code quite yet, I have contributed 4 not entirely insubstantial patches (not counting the trivial HTML one).  It may not be "much" but it's quite a bit more than "promises."

OH Eng wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 11:26pm:
you can take it personally and get all bent out of shape

Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I've taken anything personally, nor does it mean I've gotten "bent out of shape."  I have made no personal attacks on you, which is not something I can say of you.

I respect your opinion and I respect the dedication you have to YaBB.  What bothers me is your immediate criticism of ideas by presenting strawman arguments that are often (not always) avoidable or irrelevant - you could provide constructive criticism, instead of destructive.  I am also bothered by your condescension and style of lecturing.

I'm sure you could say the same things about me, so let's make a deal, eh?  How about I'll try to phrase everything as a question rather than a statement, to show that I'm open to ideas and not making over declarations, if you try to help flesh out ideas rather than grinding them to a halt?  Would that be an acceptable solution?
« Last Edit: Jun 26th, 2009 at 12:06am by cepheid »  
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Re: admin email incorrect after setup
Reply #15 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 11:26pm
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cepheid, I don't know if you are distorting reality on purpose just to get some sort of rise out of me, or not, but frankly you are wearing on me.

Since the day you arrived you have been extremely critical of many aspects of YaBB using only your eyeball and how you think it should be done, including that you think it ought to be coded in PHP after others even pointed out those forums are already out there.  You never ask why something is the way it is, only that "it's wrong" without any other consideration or any other input.  And you've been around here what, 2 months?  Other than my mistake in understanding the feature you were trying to describe - the address in the profile - I've not made "reading" mistakes with your suggestions.  I just think some of your suggestions are not good.  Like converting to PHP.  Like spending time formatting HTML when "the plan" is to do it all over again later.  Like making a big deal out of a few icons and they still aren't all consistent.  I would think you'd want to spend time doing what needs to be done rather than going off in corner with something you don't like to fix it.  But what do I know?


You might be one hell of a coder - who knows, we haven't seen much but promises out of you - but one thing you are NOT is experienced with the user base of this program.  I believe I do have some edge on you there, and it is from that experience I make the comments I do.  Believe me, you are not the first Dev to suggest making a change that would cause problems/confusion to users, and as a Support Team member who has to deal with the end product, you bet I am concerned when someone's "view" is different than reality.  All I can do is let you know my concerns.  I don't carry any more weight than you do, I'm just trying to give you the benefit of my experience.  You can choose to accept it as that, or you can take it personally and get all bent out of shape - that is YOUR choice, not mine.

So from here on in, I'll just be silent when you propose changes and you change whatever you want to.  If you do something that causes problems for users, THEN you will hear from me.  Loudly.  And if you ask why no one told you, I'll link to this thread as my answer.





  

 
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Re: admin email incorrect after setup
Reply #14 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 6:58pm
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Quote:
Yes it does ...

Thanks for the clarification.

Quote:
fixes/features should not be changed unless a definite bug is encountered and verified.

So what about actual improvements?  For example, if a certain piece of code takes 20 loops to run but could be done in just 1 line, isn't that a change worth making, even though it's not a bug?  That's what was done to the image replacement regexp, for example.  Nobody complained there, even though "it worked" before anybody messed with it.

Quote:
before changes are arbitrarily made

I have made no changes.

Quote:
hould be tested on a Test forum to prevent new bugs or faults not seen that would be effected.

I am familiar with testing and quality control.  I am a coder by profession and by hobby.
  
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Re: admin email incorrect after setup
Reply #13 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 4:04pm
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cepheid wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 5:39am:
So far, you are the only team member who has said anything about this.Does your opinion hold more weight than mine?


   Yes it does ... OH has been here for awhile, a Template designer and a Support expert, Just because others are not expressing their opinions doesn't automatically make a majority vote of agreement with an originator of an idea.

The YaBB Forum software "is" a team effort.  This seems to have been forgotten lately... fixes/features should not be changed unless a definite bug is encountered and verified.  Simple changes should not be made, simply because one user or for that matter one dev decides he/she doesn't like the way it is.
    Discussion and feedback are welcome ... from dev's, support, legends and users before changes are arbitrarily made; then, especially before uploading to CVS/SVN should be tested on a Test forum to prevent new bugs or faults not seen that would be effected.
  
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Re: admin email incorrect after setup
Reply #12 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 5:39am
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OH Eng wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 5:23am:
Look, cepheid, I really don't want to argue this point with you.

And yet, you are...

OH Eng wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 5:23am:
You know, one thing you might try, instead of making a big declaration that whatever you see is WRONG, is to ask around a bit and see if you can find out why things might be the way they are.

With all due respect, you criticize nearly every one of my suggestions, sometimes without reading them carefully to understand what it is I'm actually talking about.  Perhaps one thing you might try, instead of making a big declaration that my suggestions to make changes are WRONG, is to think about it for a few minutes and see how it might improve things.

OH Eng wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 5:23am:
Sometimes things are made without being perfect; the important thing is, they work.

So you think that just because something works, there's no reason to improve it?  Should I not worry about optimizing things just because they work, or should I make them work better?  The whole point of a developer community is that each can help improve the other's code.  Just because "it works" doesn't mean it can't be made better.

OH Eng wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 5:23am:
So which do I go with - two years of users being able to figure it out, or your sudden feeling that their inadequacy leads to confusion?

Just because nobody has complained doesn't mean nobody has experienced problems.  It could also mean that this feature is hardly ever used (because, indeed, very few ISPs actually require SMTP AUTH when a connection is made from localhost; most require it only for relay connections).

I mean, after all, clapping also keeps elephants away... I've been clapping for years and haven't seen a single one.

OH Eng wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 5:23am:
But pay no mind to what other team members are trying to say

So far, you are the only team member who has said anything about this.  Does your opinion hold more weight than mine?
  
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Re: admin email incorrect after setup
Reply #11 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 5:23am
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cepheid wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 4:26am:
Having the wrong info there is more misleading than having no info there.


Look, cepheid, I really don't want to argue this point with you. 

You know, one thing you might try, instead of making a big declaration that whatever you see is WRONG, is to ask around a bit and see if you can find out why things might be the way they are.  Not everything in this program is to your standard of perfection, maybe anyone else's too, and for various reasons.

For one thing, how many different people have worked on this code over the years?  How many have gone back and changed parts of it in order to get a certain performance out of it, while things like consistency and perfection could come later?  Take your point about the menu.def files.  Do you think one person sat down at one time and made exactly what you see today, or do you think there might have been some gradual adds/changes made?  Sometimes things are made without being perfect; the important thing is, they work.

Now up until you mentioned how totally screwed up the example values in the email setting boxes are, we haven't had a complaint in two years from a user citing the concerns you mention.  They are NOT confused by seeing Admin and Password in there, on the contrary, that gives them far more of a hint about what should be in there than a blank box does.

So which do I go with - two years of users being able to figure it out, or your sudden feeling that their inadequacy leads to confusion?

BLANKS lead to confusion.   

Quote:
That's what the darn Help files are for


Two things:

1. This information isn't in our Help files.  There is some limited information about it in the Codex, but that's it. 

2. Users rarely read them before asking for help.  Somewhere on here is a post of mine where I showed the results of every single support request for an entire quarter.  I don't recall the exact numbers, but the percentages were very high for instances in which the information the user asked for was right in the Help files or easily found in the Codex. 

But pay no mind to what other team members are trying to say, just change it.  When users ask about it, I'll be happy to post it as a bug for you to fix.


  

 
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Re: admin email incorrect after setup
Reply #10 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 4:26am
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OH Eng wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 4:22am:
Well unless you plan on spending a lot of time in the support boards advising users what these settings should be/resemble, I'd leave them as is.

Do you think the default wrong info gives users any more of a clue as to what they should be?  Having the wrong info there is more misleading than having no info there.  That's what the darn Help files are for.
« Last Edit: Jun 25th, 2009 at 4:26am by cepheid »  
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Re: admin email incorrect after setup
Reply #9 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 4:22am
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Well unless you plan on spending a lot of time in the support boards advising users what these settings should be/resemble, I'd leave them as is.  Wink

  

 
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Re: admin email incorrect after setup
Reply #8 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 4:13am
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OH Eng wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 4:07am:
Okay, I didn't catch that you were referring to the displayed address in the PROFILE only.I thought you were talking about making it update the other settings for email.

Nope, just the profile email.

That said, the Setup also defaults the SMTP AUTH settings to nonsensical values... it is incredibly rare for a user's SMTP AUTH info to be "admin" and the admin password.  Setup should default to setting SMTP AUTH = off and leaving the auth info boxes blank.  The admin should then change these values if necessary, based on his/her ISP requirements.
  
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Re: admin email incorrect after setup
Reply #7 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 4:07am
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Quote:
the admin's Profile email address


Okay, I didn't catch that you were referring to the displayed address in the PROFILE only.  I thought you were talking about making it update the other settings for email.



  

 
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