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cepheid
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admin email incorrect after setup
Jun 24th, 2009 at 11:08pm
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Since I'm gearing up for dev'ing, I just installed the SVN code and ran the Setup.  Setup.pl asks for the admin email address and populates it into the Advanced Settings, but it leaves the YaBB Administrator email as "webmaster@example.com" ... this is not correct.

The YaBB Admin email should either be the same as the webmaster email, or should be blank.

Since I'm working on getting stuff set up for dev'ing, I'll try to fix this myself and post the patch. Smiley
  
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cepheid
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Re: admin email incorrect after setup
Reply #1 - Jun 24th, 2009 at 11:11pm
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Actually, it looks like this goes beyond just the email address.  There are a bunch of settings that get set during Setup that should propagate to the Admin, including the time zone.
  
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OH Eng
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Re: admin email incorrect after setup
Reply #2 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 2:38am
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cepheid wrote on Jun 24th, 2009 at 11:08pm:
The YaBB Admin email should either be the same as the webmaster email, or should be blank.


I don't think this is broken, cepheid.  Both addresses should only be the same if chosen to be.  eMail options may dictate it be different on some setups.  I don't know for certain if this is why it's left as webmaster@example.com, but it it was left blank, a user may not catch it in the sea of other acceptable blanks in Adv. Settings, or may think the program failed to update it when it's really not supposed to.

But check with the other devs; they may know the answer.

« Last Edit: Jun 25th, 2009 at 2:41am by OH Eng »  

 
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cepheid
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Re: admin email incorrect after setup
Reply #3 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 2:40am
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OK, there's another bug here, too.  When the YaBB admin user gets created, the displayname in the memberinfo.txt file gets populated with "webmaster@yoursite.com" ... the displayname in the admin.vars file is correct, but the one in memberinfo.txt is not.

This info isn't fixed even if the admin makes profile changes, unless the display name itself is actually changed.  THEN, the proper value gets written.

I'll have to fix that, too.

Actually, I'm not even sure why the memberinfo.txt file is even there... it doesn't look like it's needed.  It does get used, but it looks like that file merely duplicates information found elsewhere.  The Board and Message files also happen to contain redundant info that ends up either not being used, or that simply doesn't need to be used.

Looks like all of these areas could benefit from some code cleanup... I'll get to it soon, I hope.
  
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cepheid
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Re: admin email incorrect after setup
Reply #4 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 2:41am
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OH Eng wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 2:38am:
Should only be the same if chosen to be.

I didn't mean that it has to stay the same.  I meant that it should be set up to be the same when the forum is first created.  The admin account is set up with a bunch of defaults, and the email address should default to the one used in the Admin Center... right now it defaults to "webmaster@example.com," which is entirely incorrect.  At least by defaulting to the webmaster address in Admin Center, you'll start out with a correct address, but it can always be changed in the future.

OH Eng wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 2:38am:
it it was left blank, a user may not catch it in the sea of other acceptable blanks in Adv. Settings

I didn't mean it should be left blank in the Admin Center, but rather in the admin profile!  But, I guess it can't actually be blank, because an email address is required.  Therefore, it should default to the same address used in the Admin Center.  The admin should be changing it anyway as s/he goes through the admin profile, but it should always start out with a valid address, not some placeholder.
« Last Edit: Jun 25th, 2009 at 2:43am by cepheid »  
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OH Eng
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Re: admin email incorrect after setup
Reply #5 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 3:33am
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cepheid,

Here is the problem.

In order to use sendmail on some hosts, mine for example, it requires that the webmaster address be my host account default address... which includes the username of my server login.  I don't want that information public, so I don't use that as my Forum Admin mail address, I use another account for that.  I also don't want my main server address being the collection box for any bounced forum emails.

What you are suggesting - I think - is to force that server email account into being the Forum Admin email address unless a user 1)automatically realizes the issue, and 2)knows to change it.  All this so a user's forum email can have "an address" in the box - even though the other boxes are not set up.

There is no need to do that.  Part of the setup instructions tell the user to go through the various settings and setting up email is part of that process.  If a user follows the directions, they will arrive at the "webmaster@example.com" and know that something needs to be in that box.

Not everything needs to be automatic, particularly when it involves risky things like offering up 1/2 of your server login to the public.

« Last Edit: Jun 25th, 2009 at 3:35am by OH Eng »  

 
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cepheid
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Re: admin email incorrect after setup
Reply #6 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 3:42am
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OH Eng wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 3:33am:
In order to use sendmail on some hosts, mine for example, it requires that the webmaster address be my host account default address... which includes the username of my server login.

That's not relevant to this issue, because the sendmail AUTH information is entirely separate from the webmaster email address.  Or do you mean that the From: address has to correspond to your default address?  If so, that address is already exposed.

OH Eng wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 3:33am:
What you are suggesting - I think - is to force that server email account into being the Forum Admin email address.

No, I am only suggesting that it default to the Forum Admin email address, because the current default is a non-working address.  The admin will still be able to change it when setting up the admin account.

OH Eng wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 3:33am:
Part of the setup instructions tell the user to go through the various settings

Yes, the Admin Center settings.  They don't say anything about the admin Profile, which is where the email address is set incorrectly.

OH Eng wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 3:33am:
If a user follows the directions, they will arrive at the "webmaster@example.com" and know that something needs to be in that box.

I think it's entirely disingenuous to stick a placeholder value in a required field and expect that a user will realize it needs to be changed.  The user should either be forced to enter the admin email address during Setup, or it should default to the address already used.  Either way, the setup instructions should be rewritten to ensure that the user modifies the admin profile settings.

OH Eng wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 3:33am:
Not everything needs to be automatic, particularly when it involves risky things like offering up 1/2 of your server login to the public.

I don't know if you noticed, but the admin email defaults to "not public."  Therefore, you're not risking anything unless you manually expose the email address.

Be aware that I'm talking about the admin's Profile email, not the email address in the Admin Center.  The problem is that when you run Setup, it asks for your email, and that goes into the Admin Center, but not the admin Profile.

Edited:
Let me be absolutely clear here.  When you run Setup, it asks for the Forum Admin email address.  That email address then populates the the "Webmaster Email Address" field in Advanced Settings -> Email.  However, the admin's Profile email address is still set to "webmaster@example.com."  Using a bogus placeholder value for a real account is not a good thing.
« Last Edit: Jun 25th, 2009 at 3:46am by cepheid »  
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OH Eng
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Re: admin email incorrect after setup
Reply #7 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 4:07am
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the admin's Profile email address


Okay, I didn't catch that you were referring to the displayed address in the PROFILE only.  I thought you were talking about making it update the other settings for email.



  

 
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cepheid
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Re: admin email incorrect after setup
Reply #8 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 4:13am
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OH Eng wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 4:07am:
Okay, I didn't catch that you were referring to the displayed address in the PROFILE only.I thought you were talking about making it update the other settings for email.

Nope, just the profile email.

That said, the Setup also defaults the SMTP AUTH settings to nonsensical values... it is incredibly rare for a user's SMTP AUTH info to be "admin" and the admin password.  Setup should default to setting SMTP AUTH = off and leaving the auth info boxes blank.  The admin should then change these values if necessary, based on his/her ISP requirements.
  
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Re: admin email incorrect after setup
Reply #9 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 4:22am
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Well unless you plan on spending a lot of time in the support boards advising users what these settings should be/resemble, I'd leave them as is.  Wink

  

 
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cepheid
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Re: admin email incorrect after setup
Reply #10 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 4:26am
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OH Eng wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 4:22am:
Well unless you plan on spending a lot of time in the support boards advising users what these settings should be/resemble, I'd leave them as is.

Do you think the default wrong info gives users any more of a clue as to what they should be?  Having the wrong info there is more misleading than having no info there.  That's what the darn Help files are for.
« Last Edit: Jun 25th, 2009 at 4:26am by cepheid »  
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Re: admin email incorrect after setup
Reply #11 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 5:23am
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cepheid wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 4:26am:
Having the wrong info there is more misleading than having no info there.


Look, cepheid, I really don't want to argue this point with you. 

You know, one thing you might try, instead of making a big declaration that whatever you see is WRONG, is to ask around a bit and see if you can find out why things might be the way they are.  Not everything in this program is to your standard of perfection, maybe anyone else's too, and for various reasons.

For one thing, how many different people have worked on this code over the years?  How many have gone back and changed parts of it in order to get a certain performance out of it, while things like consistency and perfection could come later?  Take your point about the menu.def files.  Do you think one person sat down at one time and made exactly what you see today, or do you think there might have been some gradual adds/changes made?  Sometimes things are made without being perfect; the important thing is, they work.

Now up until you mentioned how totally screwed up the example values in the email setting boxes are, we haven't had a complaint in two years from a user citing the concerns you mention.  They are NOT confused by seeing Admin and Password in there, on the contrary, that gives them far more of a hint about what should be in there than a blank box does.

So which do I go with - two years of users being able to figure it out, or your sudden feeling that their inadequacy leads to confusion?

BLANKS lead to confusion.   

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That's what the darn Help files are for


Two things:

1. This information isn't in our Help files.  There is some limited information about it in the Codex, but that's it. 

2. Users rarely read them before asking for help.  Somewhere on here is a post of mine where I showed the results of every single support request for an entire quarter.  I don't recall the exact numbers, but the percentages were very high for instances in which the information the user asked for was right in the Help files or easily found in the Codex. 

But pay no mind to what other team members are trying to say, just change it.  When users ask about it, I'll be happy to post it as a bug for you to fix.


  

 
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cepheid
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Re: admin email incorrect after setup
Reply #12 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 5:39am
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OH Eng wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 5:23am:
Look, cepheid, I really don't want to argue this point with you.

And yet, you are...

OH Eng wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 5:23am:
You know, one thing you might try, instead of making a big declaration that whatever you see is WRONG, is to ask around a bit and see if you can find out why things might be the way they are.

With all due respect, you criticize nearly every one of my suggestions, sometimes without reading them carefully to understand what it is I'm actually talking about.  Perhaps one thing you might try, instead of making a big declaration that my suggestions to make changes are WRONG, is to think about it for a few minutes and see how it might improve things.

OH Eng wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 5:23am:
Sometimes things are made without being perfect; the important thing is, they work.

So you think that just because something works, there's no reason to improve it?  Should I not worry about optimizing things just because they work, or should I make them work better?  The whole point of a developer community is that each can help improve the other's code.  Just because "it works" doesn't mean it can't be made better.

OH Eng wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 5:23am:
So which do I go with - two years of users being able to figure it out, or your sudden feeling that their inadequacy leads to confusion?

Just because nobody has complained doesn't mean nobody has experienced problems.  It could also mean that this feature is hardly ever used (because, indeed, very few ISPs actually require SMTP AUTH when a connection is made from localhost; most require it only for relay connections).

I mean, after all, clapping also keeps elephants away... I've been clapping for years and haven't seen a single one.

OH Eng wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 5:23am:
But pay no mind to what other team members are trying to say

So far, you are the only team member who has said anything about this.  Does your opinion hold more weight than mine?
  
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Re: admin email incorrect after setup
Reply #13 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 4:04pm
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cepheid wrote on Jun 25th, 2009 at 5:39am:
So far, you are the only team member who has said anything about this.Does your opinion hold more weight than mine?


   Yes it does ... OH has been here for awhile, a Template designer and a Support expert, Just because others are not expressing their opinions doesn't automatically make a majority vote of agreement with an originator of an idea.

The YaBB Forum software "is" a team effort.  This seems to have been forgotten lately... fixes/features should not be changed unless a definite bug is encountered and verified.  Simple changes should not be made, simply because one user or for that matter one dev decides he/she doesn't like the way it is.
    Discussion and feedback are welcome ... from dev's, support, legends and users before changes are arbitrarily made; then, especially before uploading to CVS/SVN should be tested on a Test forum to prevent new bugs or faults not seen that would be effected.
  
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cepheid
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Re: admin email incorrect after setup
Reply #14 - Jun 25th, 2009 at 6:58pm
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Yes it does ...

Thanks for the clarification.

Quote:
fixes/features should not be changed unless a definite bug is encountered and verified.

So what about actual improvements?  For example, if a certain piece of code takes 20 loops to run but could be done in just 1 line, isn't that a change worth making, even though it's not a bug?  That's what was done to the image replacement regexp, for example.  Nobody complained there, even though "it worked" before anybody messed with it.

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before changes are arbitrarily made

I have made no changes.

Quote:
hould be tested on a Test forum to prevent new bugs or faults not seen that would be effected.

I am familiar with testing and quality control.  I am a coder by profession and by hobby.
  
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