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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Does YaBB have a future? (Read 23,823 times)
JonB
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Re: Does YaBB have a future?
Reply #25 - Jun 21st, 2011 at 4:51am
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depablo -

well said, and if we had a 'like' button for posts I'd click it.  Wink

Smiley
  

I find your lack of faith disturbing.
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depablo
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Re: Does YaBB have a future?
Reply #24 - Jun 19th, 2011 at 12:54pm
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Its great to see active discussion take place. How do other forums recruit developers? Would university under graduates not help as part of their course work?

Facebook destroyed my own family forum, folk realised they could control who had access and they like the power of being their own administrators.

Installing forums which use MySql / php is a breeze and if yabb goes down this route it also leaves behind the legacy of it being a resource hog.

Can this site not be run on a decent budget host @ $6 per month? Sourceforge really makes this site unusable and it would be worth investing in decent hosting just to show how the site should run.

yabb is first class software, people should take pride in their achievements and fight for its survival. SMF had troubles, it picked itself up and appears to be rebuilding past reputation, so it proves with the right mindset anything is possable.



  

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The Boy
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Re: Does YaBB have a future?
Reply #23 - Jun 18th, 2011 at 10:22pm
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CorcyraGlobal wrote on Jun 16th, 2011 at 3:12pm:
We are running YaBB 2.5 AE, and IMO the features, performance and stability are great compared with most other BB's.

Is the "issue" with ongoing development support for YaBB that the skill base has moved on since YaBB was first written ten years ago?  If that is correct, then I think the emphasis should be on standardizing support for lots of nice templates for the YaBB 2.5+ versions, fixing any bugs, and the YaBB version with underlying technology change should be discontinued.

Corcyra's YaBB 2.5 forum is hosted on iPage where the performance for a shared hosting site is pretty good, but having said that, there are just 40 users at the moment.  If performance becomes a problem as more users join, we will move to a dedicated server.


The system, as it stands, has a fundamental problem with searching as your site grows.  Hence my feeling its future has to be SQL based. Sticking it on a dedicated server doesn't fix this issue.

Not amount of fluffy bunny templates is going to help, and certainly not where I'd like to see the limited developer resource use its precious time.
  
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CorcyraGlobal
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Re: Does YaBB have a future?
Reply #22 - Jun 16th, 2011 at 3:12pm
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We are running YaBB 2.5 AE, and IMO the features, performance and stability are great compared with most other BB's.

Is the "issue" with ongoing development support for YaBB that the skill base has moved on since YaBB was first written ten years ago?  If that is correct, then I think the emphasis should be on standardizing support for lots of nice templates for the YaBB 2.5+ versions, fixing any bugs, and the YaBB version with underlying technology change should be discontinued.

Corcyra's YaBB 2.5 forum is hosted on iPage where the performance for a shared hosting site is pretty good, but having said that, there are just 40 users at the moment.  If performance becomes a problem as more users join, we will move to a dedicated server.

  
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Derek Barnstorm
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Re: Does YaBB have a future?
Reply #21 - Jun 11th, 2011 at 12:54am
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batchman wrote on Jun 11th, 2011 at 12:42am:
If 2.5 is the final official YaBB release, I still thank everybody involved over the years from the bottom of my heart ... you did fabulous work

Yeah, nice words Batchman. I forgot that bit, so will just steel your words - whatever happens, I would also like to thank everyone who has come before us and made this project possible, and for giving me the opportunity to practice some skills and learn many new.
  
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batchman
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Re: Does YaBB have a future?
Reply #20 - Jun 11th, 2011 at 12:42am
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Personally, I wonder if not only YaBB, but forums in general, may be history. I know that every single forum I am a member of has seen massive slow-downs in the last year or two.

People just aren't into forums as much as they used to be ... hate to say it, but we've been largely replaced by Facebook. Which saddens me because while it is possible to have in-depth conversations in Facebook, it is not easy. Much easier to do the short bites.

As to YaBB itself, and Derek's call to change formats ... perhaps he is right, and perhaps that is what is needed to bring YaBB back to life. And perhaps it would be easier to get new coders if the software were in a language they prefer using.

But the part of it I see is that doing so might mean a steep learning curve to our current users to manage to continue making use of the software. Believe me, YaBB already has a somewhat steep learning curve.

I may get a new board set up perfectly the first time, these days, but I can remember when I had to scrap it and try again a couple of times to get something working, in the earlier days. If things are switched to a completely new style, I think it is important to try and make installation as easy as possible, for all those who will lose all their hard-gained knowledge getting things installed and working.

Either way, it has been a great ride with YaBB for something like 8 years for me, all the way from Gold 1.1, with just a couple of bumps along the way.

As long as YaBB stays around, it will be my forum software. And I really have to say that even with nothing new, I am incredibly impressed with all my 2.5 board can do, and would be happy using it for several years, even with nothing new coming down the tracks.

If YaBB rises from the ashes again, I will give the new version a try, even if it means having to learn some new stuff. If 2.5 is the final official YaBB release, I still thank everybody involved over the years from the bottom of my heart ... you did fabulous work, and I will still have my forums running for years to come!

I have reached the point where I have no clue what I am trying to say, or where I am trying to go with this ... but hopefully something in the above muddle was worth some kind of consideration. If not, sorry for wasting your time!  Grin
  
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Derek Barnstorm
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Re: Does YaBB have a future?
Reply #19 - Jun 10th, 2011 at 11:40pm
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Okay, well seeing as my last comment wasn't very constructive, I'll try to say what I truthfully think. And before I say it, I want to remind you guys that I am here because I love the project and the YaBB name, and don't want it to die. And, what I'm about to say may surprise or even offend some of you, which I am certainly not aiming to do - I have met some very good people here (you know who you are), and some people in particular have been an influence in my life, not just my YaBB life. I wouldn't have spent so many hours mod writing or even writing this if I didn't care.

So, we all know that this needs to change; here comes the dreaded acronym which I expect to be shot down for. It's already very accepted that we have to please the users and you guys know that we have to go with MySQL - Here it is - If we are going to do that, why don't we just write it in a language which was built for it - PHP. Again, I know I'll be shot down for this, but I want to see YaBB have a future. The web has changed so much since everything was in Perl/flat file. I reassure you that to me 'personally' I don't really care what the language is that it is coded in, but like it or lump it, unless it's some complex coding that requires Perl then everyone is choosing PHP these days - there has to be a reason for that.

I know this doesn't solve the problems with devs, because if there's no devs, there's no devs - that's it - gone. But, the brutal truth is that if YaBB doesn't change then all of you know that is has gone. Brown Bread - dead!

It's already been said that YaBB needs to give the public what it wants, and the public wants PHP/MySQL. It's also always going to impossible to make YaBB compatible with other third party software because of this. Times change, so we have to change too.

Again, I'm sorry to say this, but YaBB just doesn't have a future in Perl - and if you're honest you already know that. You all know what's going on, so why pretend that it will work out. It won't work out.

Basically, I love this, and as I have said I wouldn't have spent so much of my life caring about it if I didn't... well, care. All I want to see is the YaBB name carry on. It won't happen like this. And, sorry, but just giving SQL support won't work magic. There's other software already going that's been doing these things which have been promised for years.

We are so far behind that it is unbelievable. There's websites now that are already making use of HTML5 and CSS3 - YaBB3 is taking so long that this already needs to be considered. In my opinion the next release should be in HTML5. We also need to be making use of JQuery.

The bottom line is, yes, YaBB is dead in the water compared to the web ocean surrounding us. Rather than carry on with half arsed updates, maybe we should just totally take a break and make an 'Elvis style come back' with something amazing.

Dare I say that XenForo has just kicked the butt of every other forum software.

I'm very, very sorry about saying this, but I know that you all know it is true. And whatever happens I will always stick by this project.

All I'm saying is, times change and we need to too.

*Now Derek waits for a massive kicikin'*
« Last Edit: Jun 10th, 2011 at 11:47pm by Derek Barnstorm »  
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Derek Barnstorm
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Re: Does YaBB have a future?
Reply #18 - Jun 10th, 2011 at 12:52pm
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Totally agree with the performance of this site. I've also given up trying to view the latest posts and even replying on more than a few occasions, which really isn't good. I dread to think how many users it has frightened off.
  
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The Boy
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Re: Does YaBB have a future?
Reply #17 - Jun 10th, 2011 at 7:54am
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@ Michael Prager (and Corey and Jet-Li)

As SQL is 'mostly' working, and this site is not too large, is it worth making this site SQL.

My point about the perfromance of YaBB's 'showcase' site being slow - and it seems many agree - is that it scares off potential new YaBB users, particularly with the web being full of posts about YaBB running poorly (although back in the YaBB1 days, but reputations can stick).  Without new people using YaBB (due to seeing perfromance here, and reading about poor performance on the net), what hope is there?


As I pointed out earlier, it is possible to run a large flatfile 2.5 YaBB for virtually zero cost.  If putting this site quickly onto SQL (or whatever else fixes the specific issue with sourceforge) is not an option, maybe its worth considering running this site in a similar way that I manage mine.



To me, for YaBB to survive, this site has to be top priority, followed by a fairly quick release of Y3.  I imagine most existing users will want to stick with Flatfile (with the current implementations in the beta) for the performance over SQL.

Then, within a few months, drop flatfile completely and implement a true, optimised SQL.  I know that will mean some YaBBers will have to stay at Y3.0, due to No MySQL capability.

Obviously, my suggestions in last 2 paragraphs will mean extra work in writing converters multiple times, but I believe YaBB is currently backed up in a corner.



I hope my ramblings above make some sense to somebody in charge here, even if they choose another road instead Smiley. I'm heartened to see that at least discussion is going on Cheesy
  
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Michael Prager
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Re: Does YaBB have a future?
Reply #16 - Jun 9th, 2011 at 10:13pm
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I think the number one issue right now is indeed the lack of active developers. Without at least two or three coders this is not going anywhere soon.

When I pushed the SQL port forward in January I had plenty of time on my hand and a motivation to get development going again. But that was ~4 months ago and real life goes on. I now have a new job and I need to think twice on what to spend my free time on. Realistically I can at most offer maybe 2h a week. But this alone won't cut it.

I think we made big progress with cool things like sub boards, utf8 and sql support. It's not that far away from a release I'd say. Things certainly still missing are bug and stability fixes, a usable converter (that's what I was working on when things got stuck) and a easy to use installer. Enabling the current SQL implementation will not necessarily make a board run faster (The Boy can tell). But at least it does work in its current state (see http://www.dev.yabbworld.com/cgi-bin/forum/ and http://www.boardmod.org/cgi-bin/yabb3/YaBB.pl). It all depends on where we want to go. I think it's a good thing if we manage to decide whether we drop flat file support or not. But I need to remind everyone that going SQL-only will require more than just a few days of work. It will require a complete rewrite of the currently existing SQL port, especially if we want to get things more performant. This would go along with a redesign of the current database structure. The "faster" option (in means of an earlier release) would be to just port the currently still missing flatfiles into the current "not-so-optimal" database. But that option is not very attractive for potential new developers as the current database code is far from being pleasant.

I understand all the folks complaining about the current website performance. But I have to point out that this was pretty much the only way to keep this website alive. You won't get fully featured website hosting for free these days, you need to spend a lot of money to get a comparable commercial offer. I know the exact reason why this forum is running so slow on sourceforge (I wrote the patch to make it run at all). You can pretty much sum it up as "bad luck": sourceforge is using NFS as filesystem for their servers. You won't have this problem on any other host out there. It will go away instantly as soon as the SQL backend is being used here. We just have to release the next YaBB version first  Tongue

Oh btw: it's very annoying that topic notifications can't be used in this forum right now. Makes it kind of hard to keep track of discussion. Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: Jun 9th, 2011 at 10:24pm by Michael Prager »  

Nail here for a new monitor! --> [x]
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chillipepper
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Re: Does YaBB have a future?
Reply #15 - Jun 9th, 2011 at 9:49pm
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It dont look good guys.last 2 years as gone so much down hill,And last july came out with ver 2.5 with all the big talkup of something very good as yabb been runnin 10years and that was big dissapointment to alot.you been runnin YaBB Next Edition for along time but you still dont release it.This flagship site very slow and not helped yabb,who knows how long yabb3 is goin to take,why dont you ship out an 2.6 with sub-boards and all this new ajax thats runnin on this site etc etc..if this version is good to run on this site then its should be release..comon pull your finger out and start the ball rollin..am sure a release can be put together by the weekend..gettin a newer version out is better than doin nothing..
  
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The Boy
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Re: Does YaBB have a future?
Reply #14 - Jun 8th, 2011 at 9:36pm
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My biggest fear, now, is that all the momentum that had been built up over Autumn and Winter has all been lost due to these key decisions that need weren't ever made when they needed to be, 3.5 months ago.

I hope that momentum can be revived, but if I'm honest, I'm now pessimistic. A small glimmer of hope is that us YaBB users appear to have Corey's attention, and as Steward of YaBB, are looking to him to steer YaBB towards a successful YaBB3 release soon.

YaBB3 has been promised at some indeterminate time in the future for as long as my site has been running - 5yrs in exactly 1 month from now - IMHO, it must be released this time, and by the summer.  Further delays with the release schedule will, I believe, drive away a significant proportion of loyal YaBBers. Which will be a real shame.


As to Sourceforge, I think its done irrepairable damage to YaBB, in that it must have driven users away. Sourceforge is, IMHO, a grave mistake.

Due to an (almost) unique feature of YaBB to split dynamic and static content, I am able to run a 1.1m post YaBB, with at least 50 concurrent users most evenings (UK time) for virtually zero cost.  My static content is hosted on a high bandwidth cheapo host, my dynamic content is hosted on the end of a UK ADSL line on a dedicated VM, allocated modest resources.  And it runs a darn site better than this site.  See for yourself - www.omegaowners.com



As I've said on the dev site, whilst I'm still a YaBB user, I'd love to help with YaBB3, but my poor Perl skills preclude me from doing anything more than testing new releases with my large dataset. Sorry  Embarrassed
  
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Corey Chapman
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Re: Does YaBB have a future?
Reply #13 - Jun 8th, 2011 at 5:46pm
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PerlMonks is where we tried before, and I'm guessing no pay is what stopped them.

As far as stripping things people no longer want, my guess is flat file.  Perhaps there are too many that want just SQL to ignore that as an option.  However, in the past and certainly still some people now chose YaBB -because- it was flat file and didn't require an expensive or sometimes difficult to setup database. 

But, I'm willing to make that big change if the developers would return and make it happen soon.
  

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Matt Siegman
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Re: Does YaBB have a future?
Reply #12 - Jun 8th, 2011 at 11:15am
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YaBB needs some new blood, but it's hard to get Perlers for free these days. Most of the people you will find on Perlmonks, for example, are well paid consultants.

I'm impressed with all the work on this project since the last time I was here.

And here's the cold, hard truth as it stands:
* YaBB, currently, does not have much of a future unless some big changes happen
* Almost any large project can stay successful if the project team is able to adjust to new circumstances
* We have to be willing to cut out features that are no longer used, or that stand in the way of progress
* We have to give the people what they want.
« Last Edit: Jun 8th, 2011 at 11:17am by Matt Siegman »  

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Corey Chapman
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Re: Does YaBB have a future?
Reply #11 - Jun 7th, 2011 at 8:55pm
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Trust me on the subject of mass team wipes - I've done it several times.  I will probably be doing it again soon, which is something I do almost every 6-14 months.  The problem is, in the current case (which has happened just a couple times before), nobody is posting or responding.  This means I either have to wipe almost everyone or hope that the most recently active (and a few long term veterans) are just on a break right now.  If I just cut certain people, I may be sending the wrong message to them when they are ready to come back.  There are certainly others that I can and will remove from the team without question.  I did a huge wipe last summer. 

The biggest challenge is finding the "new blood".  I ask for volunteers all the time both here and at SourceForge.  We've even posted requests on Perl.org and other Perl development dedicated sites.  Every now and then I get responses on those external sites but once I reply to them, I get nothing back.  Most times it's probably because this is not a paid job.
  

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