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 25 Does YaBB have a future? (Read 22,762 times)
Captain John
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Re: Does YaBB have a future?
Reply #40 - Jul 18th, 2011 at 7:54pm
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The Boy wrote on Jul 18th, 2011 at 6:46pm:
was it had to go with one back end or the other.


"Think" that has been decided ... flat file to sql ... and never return.
  
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The Boy
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Re: Does YaBB have a future?
Reply #39 - Jul 18th, 2011 at 6:46pm
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The option of flatfile and sql or just sql is a huge programming feature ... But like you a few .. don't care of YaBB supports going back to flat.  These are concerns we have conversations about

I like the idea of offering both options.  But as an amateur programmer (sadly not Perl!), I know, given the current Y3 architecture, its nigh on impossible to do properly, without maintaining 2 versions.

Having witnessed the performance of the current SQL implementation - miles worse than the current flat file system - it serves no purpose.  The flatfile is always going to be hard to beat performance wise (except on Sourceforge Grin) for most operations, but searching through several hundred thousand files is always going to end in failure. Actually, just letting the OS's APIs manage that many files in signal directories isn't going to help.

So flatfile is very convenient - easy to set up, doesn't need database servers, fast. But it doesn't scale.

As per the discussion in Feb on the dev site, there are choices (and it seemed to be deciding which one which stalled the project).  The message back from the devs, Micheal Prager and Jet-Li (both of whom I have the greatest respect for), was it had to go with one back end or the other.

Given that flatfile won't scale up, surely that makes a RDBMS based back end a better option, if it does have to be one method or the other...? Wink
  
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Captain John
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Re: Does YaBB have a future?
Reply #38 - Jul 18th, 2011 at 4:04pm
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The Boy wrote on Jul 18th, 2011 at 10:14am:
would a release of Y3 in its current guise, attract developers again? Or do you think YaBB has past the point of no return...


IMHO ... If it hadn't been for Michael Prager we wouldn't have SQL .. But to release the Y3 SQL Version as it is ... would NOT be good for the reputation of YaBB.  I know we have released versions that had bugs after release ... and eventually provided fixes .. but we always had a stable version we felt would work.  Even though the dev site and even a couple beta sites besides, it's not ready.  .... and "I" would say .. close but no cigar.
"Of No Return" No .. I still think Y3 in it's current state is a HUGE step forward (for users who "want" SQL).  We just need enthusiasm in developing again.
  We have "serious" bugs .. not just in the sql part .. but in our upgrading from older versions. I have a real problem with users of very old versions of YaBB not upgrading ..then years ........ later they want the security, options of the latest version ... files and variables have changed ... and to bring theirs into the future is VERY hard to do.
  YaBB has always ... designed to be updated ... and "maybe" will still be coded to do so.  The option of flatfile and sql or just sql is a huge programming feature ... But like you a few .. don't care of YaBB supports going back to flat.  These are concerns we have conversations about ......
   Programmers, Devs, Coders need recognition, support, and a whole lot less pressure for working on a open source project with no pay, no set hours to work, family neglect, and a job nobody wants ... (without compensation).
  Open Source projects can not stay alive over (10 years for YaBB) without volunteers AND monetary support.  As You can see ... No support financially ended us here on Sourceforge with all the server problems we now have with this site.
  YaBB dead ?  No but choking ......
  
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The Boy
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Re: Does YaBB have a future?
Reply #37 - Jul 18th, 2011 at 10:14am
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The Boy wrote on Jul 15th, 2011 at 1:01pm:
Now it seems (and I'm guessing, as I don't know) there is a lack of direction, a lack of will and a severe lack of developers to continue.


 As a staff member and close to being the only one here anymore (Support is still available !), I have seen YaBB develop from Y2,1 to this Next Edition (Y3).  I see the problems by use of the software and being one of the few left providing support.
 First we lost (moved on) several old time programmers (Legends)from the era before Y2 and of Y2.  We got a small influx of New Perl programmers (Unilat & deti)(and Michael Prager from BoardMOD for the sql and file lock insertion) and some template designers (gersys, LWS & Derek Barnstorm) to get us thru some neat looking and great enhancements (plus bug fixes) of versions since, to where we are now.
 Working with a programming code is tiring, boring and difficult.  It seems, it burns out a good programmer in time.
  I have noticed that some of the problems with getting a version released is due to single individual pressure to add or change the forum for their likes, though it may not be the best for all, making for bloat to creep into the software code.  Programmers having a small base of beta testers and the rush to get it done, of course means bug fixes for every release, no let up in coding from a release to again recoding.  Too much pressure: example Y3 .... the constant questioning, constant stating it is needed (Sql) for years now.
  We (the remaining staff) have the direction, we have the goal and we all have the will.
 We NEED Perl programmers ........... to continue.

CJ, I found your post uplifting and depressing.

I am so pleased to hear you feel you (the team) have a goal, and think you know how to get there Cheesy, but you have confirmed my feelings that nobody is interested any more - you are one of the few left, by your own admission, and are struggling to get new people on board?  Cry



You have no idea how much I want to stay with YaBB.  Both I (from an Admin perspective) and our userbase (from a user persective) generally feel that YaBB is one of the best forums out there.  The feedback I get is they like the simplistic layout, the accessibility of the features, the overall usability, the reliability of the forum as a whole and individual features, the stability, and the speed.

The only real, constant complaint we get is Search. By its nature, its truely awful.  My site, like many forum sites still going, is an information and help site, thus search is critical to it.  Additionally, we are starting to see index corruption more frequently.


Unless YaBB goes fully MySQL optimised, my own issues above will not be resolved. But releasing nothing, MySQL optimised or not, just makes the project feel 'dead'.

Rambling aloud, from your experience, would a release of Y3 in its current guise, attract developers again? Or do you think YaBB has past the point of no return...
  
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Captain John
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Re: Does YaBB have a future?
Reply #36 - Jul 15th, 2011 at 3:50pm
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The Boy wrote on Jul 15th, 2011 at 1:01pm:
Now it seems (and I'm guessing, as I don't know) there is a lack of direction, a lack of will and a severe lack of developers to continue.


  As a staff member and close to being the only one here anymore (Support is still available !), I have seen YaBB develop from Y2,1 to this Next Edition (Y3).  I see the problems by use of the software and being one of the few left providing support.
  First we lost (moved on) several old time programmers (Legends)from the era before Y2 and of Y2.  We got a small influx of New Perl programmers (Unilat & deti)(and Michael Prager from BoardMOD for the sql and file lock insertion) and some template designers (gersys, LWS & Derek Barnstorm) to get us thru some neat looking and great enhancements (plus bug fixes) of versions since, to where we are now.
  Working with a programming code is tiring, boring and difficult.  It seems, it burns out a good programmer in time.
   I have noticed that some of the problems with getting a version released is due to single individual pressure to add or change the forum for their likes, though it may not be the best for all, making for bloat to creep into the software code.  Programmers having a small base of beta testers and the rush to get it done, of course means bug fixes for every release, no let up in coding from a release to again recoding.  Too much pressure: example Y3 .... the constant questioning, constant stating it is needed (Sql) for years now.
   We (the remaining staff) have the direction, we have the goal and we all have the will.
  We NEED Perl programmers ........... to continue.
  
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The Boy
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Re: Does YaBB have a future?
Reply #35 - Jul 15th, 2011 at 1:01pm
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chillipepper wrote on Jul 13th, 2011 at 6:24pm:
@ The Boy

To be honest i think Yabb is dead in the water..maybe if we had the top coders like carsten and deti then there would be a chance..as it stands right now i think we need to be lookin into how we can convert our yabb boards.

Yabb 2.6 was ready before last chirstmas but was put on hold till a DB was made to work with it..this like sub-boards etc was needed as standard and been on this site but was never release.why i do not know,as so many members wanted the extras..we have a good system with yabb and its a shame that it was let to die over the last few years.as for project YABB 3 well this is dead as it stands..

I for 1 is very sad to watch yabb go out this way  Cry

This version always was Y3 (using Y2.5 as the base), and was 'almost' ready back in Jan/Feb time.

However, when I was invited to beta test it, the MySQL side of things was below expectations (I have a fairly large forum).

For me, its virtually good enough to use as-is on Flatfile (accepting the same limitation around searching as 2.5), but I won't as its obvious that extra work needs to be done under the hood to optimise the MySQL side, which might mean data format chances. Thus running a pre-release version with a unique file format is risky. To risky for me.


There was some very strong momentum back then, it was really looking promising, then we hit the issues that I highlighted in my original post. Now it seems (and I'm guessing, as I don't know) there is a lack of direction, a lack of will and a severe lack of developers to continue.


Personally, just to inject something into the staleness, I'd like to see the current Y3 released as Y3 very soon, with a set of fixes shortly after (quite a lot has changed, so will be problems I suspect), followed by a Y3.5 in a few months once MySQL has been optimised.

I know Y3 isn't quite ready for non ASCII sites though.


I've been trying other software, including the converters, nothing quite fits the bill like YaBB. Partly due to the brilliant way YaBB allows splitting of dynamic and static content between different servers (won't affect most YaBB users), partly because no converter maintains the internal links (which will bugger up my Google PR, currently at 4), and partly because all our processes are built around YaBB. Unsurprisingly, SMF is the closest to my needs. But nothing quite matches YaBB.

Like many, I'm wondering if my hand will be forced to migrate though  Cry
  
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chillipepper
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Re: Does YaBB have a future?
Reply #34 - Jul 13th, 2011 at 6:24pm
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@ The Boy

To be honest i think Yabb is dead in the water..maybe if we had the top coders like carsten and deti then there would be a chance..as it stands right now i think we need to be lookin into how we can convert our yabb boards.

Yabb 2.6 was ready before last chirstmas but was put on hold till a DB was made to work with it..this like sub-boards etc was needed as standard and been on this site but was never release.why i do not know,as so many members wanted the extras..we have a good system with yabb and its a shame that it was let to die over the last few years.as for project YABB 3 well this is dead as it stands..

I for 1 is very sad to watch yabb go out this way  Cry
« Last Edit: Jul 13th, 2011 at 6:36pm by chillipepper »  
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The Boy
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Re: Does YaBB have a future?
Reply #33 - Jul 13th, 2011 at 5:44pm
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Despair is beginning to creep in again, with no real input either here or on the dev site for over a month.  In fact, other than a few words spoken by project leaders and devs on this site a few weeks ago, no progress since February.

I know and fully appreciate we are reliant on busy devs trying to find some spare time, for which they should be applauded, but I can't help feel the devs have lost will to find time since we lost momentum in February.  And absolutely no disrespect intended in my comments, and I have the highest respect for the devs who freely give up their own time.

Just the knowledge that something is happening would be enough of a carrot to keep me patient and loyal  Undecided



Selfishly, my current problem is my site is beginning to struggle over the last few months.  I've just spent a bit and thrown new hardware at it, but its only a short term fix, and is putting pressure on me to do something about it.

From testing, AJAX in the current flatfile Next Edition does help a fair bit, which would give extra breathing space until an optimised SQL version is ready.



As I'm backed up in a corner, I need to ask direct questions to Corey. Is there a timetable? If not, have discussions on timetables taken place? Do you honestly foresee Y3 being released, and do you foresee an optimised MySQL version soon?



Thankyou for taking the time to read this long post, and thanks in advance if anyone answers my questions Smiley

A very anxious TheBoy
  
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Unilat
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Re: Does YaBB have a future?
Reply #32 - Jun 30th, 2011 at 7:15pm
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There are many other AJAX features like favorites, notifications, marking boards read, board and subboard drop downs on the homepage, the reply box, IM sending, as well as others. Check facts first.

I agree with Corey. Many people have come through claiming to create a new message board from scratch b themselves. A team is necessary in the modern day to create successful large software. It will take you quite some time to develop all the current features YaBB has and even longer if you go with the bloated features of other boards. Proving that YaBB can be better by writing a php version from scratch does nothing to "prove" for YaBB at all. It is not the same coding style or implemented the same way so it implies no improvement over the current. If you would help with YaBB you could build a reliable quick database, perl works the same as any other code with MySQL.
  
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Corey Chapman
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Re: Does YaBB have a future?
Reply #31 - Jun 30th, 2011 at 3:31pm
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YaBB rewrites from the ground up have been attempted 2-3 times with fresh code.  A couple times we got very close, but the team gave up on it for a few reasons:  no speed improvements with the way database implementation was handled (which was in effort to support any type), lack of desire to rewrite every single feature and security measure, disagreement on coding style using OOP, and inexperience by some team members to be able to code in strict more challenging but better coding styles.  In the end, it was decided last year to continue again with the existing original code base (which has been "rewritten" over the years but not from scratch) so it could be done quicker.  With this decision, our development team implemented many desired features like sub boards and a calendar as well as the start to MySQL.  We did not want to release the other major changes as another version 2 but rather reserve them for the big fanfare of MySQL-supporting YaBB 3.  Unfortunately we ran into lack of time on the developers' part to continue working and a stumbling block with the MySQL implementation being poor and not much faster while trying to preserve flat file as a secondary option.  We have just made the decision recently to go ahead and ditch flat file for MySQL only so we can get the show on the road.  Now we are waiting for the developers to find time again to work.

There really isn't anything to prove.  We know a rewrite from scratch or using the existing code can be done.  Why has it taken so long?  Because of the developers having real lives that conflict with time for YaBB and because of people like you saying they can do better on their own.  Don't forget that the team is comprised of random strangers around the world that have never met and are just volunteering time.  It really irks me every time someone comes along and says they can do better than "the team" instead of proving it and bettering YaBB by offering to use that talent and time as part of the team.
  

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The Boy
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Re: Does YaBB have a future?
Reply #30 - Jun 22nd, 2011 at 6:33pm
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I agree that if YaBB needs to be rewritten from scratch, then its not worth it.  No code is that bad.  Its a trap YaBB keep falling into for idealistic ideas, and sod practicality.

There are enough php+mysql options out there, it seems daft to rewrite another, unless you need something very specific that isn't available...  ...but then many are open source anyway...
  
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Unilat
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Re: Does YaBB have a future?
Reply #29 - Jun 22nd, 2011 at 1:20am
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Honestly YaBB is so bloated and has so many members on the dev team that it's absolutely no wonder that it takes so long to release updates.

This is not true. We have several support team members and 2 current active developers.

Why should members give a darn at all about AJAX? AJAX won't fix performance, and if implemented poorly will cost performance. Who cares about the flashy interface when there isn't even a sub boards feature or proper search?

This is not true. Ajax is a significant improvement despite how it's implemented. Even the poorest implementation results in a full page load, as it is done originally.

In case you haven't seen, I've implemented subboards for several months now and they have been showcased on this forum for quite some time.

We are rewriting YaBB  for SQL which will in time fix the search problems.

A foundation needs to be laid - with core message board features. And then more features can be worried about. But until there is a clean break, and a shift in philosophy you'll all be clinging to a sinking ship.

We have all this implemented almost as good as it gets for flat file. Why rewrite it when we have all the core features plus tons of other useful features while also excluding many for the purpose of not overcrowding the software.

I'll be coding a message board from scratch, I'm basing it off of how YaBB looks and feels, with improvements of course. I'll post more updates later.

This is pointless. There are many boards out there that provide free professional quality forums, including YaBB and more importantly hugely updated and maintained database forums. Why on earth would you create a new one?

Why not volunteer your time helping YaBB if your ideas are so novel? We've been asking for developers and we have fresh direction, just not enough people for implementation.
« Last Edit: Jun 22nd, 2011 at 1:24am by Unilat »  
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NextGen
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Re: Does YaBB have a future?
Reply #28 - Jun 21st, 2011 at 7:58pm
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Well, my general thoughts are this: What YaBB needs, if it would ever be sustainable is to be completely rewritten. People put too much in this legacy code. Honestly YaBB is so bloated and has so many members on the dev team that it's absolutely no wonder that it takes so long to release updates.

Why should members give a darn at all about AJAX? AJAX won't fix performance, and if implemented poorly will cost performance. Who cares about the flashy interface when there isn't even a sub boards feature or proper search?

A foundation needs to be laid - with core message board features. And then more features can be worried about. But until there is a clean break, and a shift in philosophy you'll all be clinging to a sinking ship.

I'll be coding a message board from scratch, I'm basing it off of how YaBB looks and feels, with improvements of course. I'll post more updates later.
  
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chillipepper
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Re: Does YaBB have a future?
Reply #27 - Jun 21st, 2011 at 5:54pm
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NextGen wrote on Jun 21st, 2011 at 5:03pm:
I will be writing my own version of YaBB in PHP and MySQL. I'll post more on that later.


Sounds very intresting.gl with this projet and let us know how you get on.. Smiley
  
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Re: Does YaBB have a future?
Reply #26 - Jun 21st, 2011 at 5:03pm
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Sticking to Perl and flat files just to be proud is a fundamental issue in itself - it's like a business wanting to stick to the old paperwork system when computers have clearly taken over. To be proud of something is one thing, but to be proud to the point of blindness is the death of a business.

That being said, I will be writing my own version of YaBB in PHP and MySQL. I'll post more on that later.
  
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