Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) YaBB v SMF2 performance (Read 8,827 times)
The Boy
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 352
Location: UK
YaBB v SMF2 performance
Jan 17th, 2012 at 9:42pm
Post Tools
My site migrated from YaBB 2.5AE to SMF2 on 23rd Sep 2011.  It runs on the same virtual machine, albeit it now with 1.5Gb RAM allocated (the YaBB site had 1Gb RAM allocated).  MySQL runs on the same VM.




The site in question is a 1.2m post, 90k threads site. www.omegaowners.com
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Bill Myers
God Member
Beta Testers
*****
Offline



Posts: 1,713
Location: Los Angeles

YaBB 2.4
Re: YaBB v SMF2 performance
Reply #1 - Jan 17th, 2012 at 10:26pm
Post Tools
The Boy wrote on Jan 17th, 2012 at 9:42pm:
My site migrated from YaBB 2.5AE to SMF2 on 23rd Sep 2011.  It runs on the same virtual machine, albeit it now with 1.5Gb RAM allocated (the YaBB site had 1Gb RAM allocated).  MySQL runs on the same VM.




The site in question is a 1.2m post, 90k threads site. www.omegaowners.com

In my personal experiences with YaBB, it's always operated very fast. The exceptions weren't related to YaBB at all; just various host servers that weren't up to speed; sometimes in more ways than one such as what it's like here in this forum, but that's evidently because of problems with SourceForge (file locking problems I think); not with YaBB itself.

Of course, our YaBB 2,4 forum only has 7,379 members with 10,987 posts within 1765 topics; not even close to your numbers. Still, there are a lot of page views because the forum is fed by a very popular site that's had over 100 million hits at this point.

I previously helped the owners of a couple dozen YaBB forums, getting them started, etc., but none of them had a lot of traffic. Sadly, despite my urging to stay with YaBB, excluding those who dropped their forums altogether for reasons unrelated to YaBB's otherwise good support in my opinion, even though support for them was lacking, every one of them subsequently migrated to other forums for various reasons. Still, none of them ever had any speed problems directly related to YaBB itself.

Edited:
A spelling error has been corrected.


« Last Edit: Jan 18th, 2012 at 12:55am by Bill Myers »  

Morning, noon, or night, have a great one!

Note: This forum doesn't allow for us to freely edit our posts or topics to make corrections as needed, so please remember to look for subsequent posts if you see any mistakes or outdated information. Sorry for the inconvenience.
Back to top
IP Logged
 
The Boy
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 352
Location: UK
Re: YaBB v SMF2 performance
Reply #2 - Jan 19th, 2012 at 7:38pm
Post Tools
@ Bill Myers

Yes, considering the size/activity of the site, in conjunction with its architecture, I was always so impressed with how well it ran, search aside (a full search in quite periods would take about 20mins to complete on my site), being in mind its effectively hosted on a shoestring, and the wrong end of a 256kbit line.

The killer, and it is a killer, is as we got towards about 750,000 posts (so guessing about 70k topics - topics are more important measure than posts), it really did start to nosedive performancewise, as the disk subsystem (HP SMART P400 with 256Mb BBWC running a pair of disks in RAID1) just couldn't hack it any more.  This is a better, despite being last generation, disk controller setup than most hosts out there.

The lack of YaBB3 forced me to migrate to something that could handle the traffic. Reluctantly. Very reluctantly.


SMF2 gets the pages out to the clients (over same infrastructure, and on same hardware) in just over a quarter of the time.

YaBB 2 is still very worthy of consideration for new sites, esp if not expected to grow too big initially.  Its simple layout is clear and concise for users, and, in my experience, is outstandingly reliable. That last point cannot be overemphasised.


Sadly, I have no YaBB sites left, but I find it heartwarming that the most suitable softwre I could find is a YaBB fork Grin



I posted the performance graph for those with equally large/busy sites, who feel they are backed in a corner with the current YaBB software.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Bill Myers
God Member
Beta Testers
*****
Offline



Posts: 1,713
Location: Los Angeles

YaBB 2.4
Re: YaBB v SMF2 performance
Reply #3 - Jan 19th, 2012 at 8:20pm
Post Tools
The Boy wrote on Jan 19th, 2012 at 7:38pm:
...

The lack of YaBB3 forced me to migrate to something that could handle the traffic. Reluctantly. Very reluctantly.

...

Sadly, I have no YaBB sites left, but I find it heartwarming that the most suitable softwre I could find is a YaBB fork Grin

...

Handling a large amount of traffic has always been my concern since one of the biggest mistakes any entrepreneur can make is not planning for success. I've seen businesses fail because they couldn't handle success that quickly overwhelmed them. Go figure.

I'm hoping that YaBB can someday become Facebook-like or Twitter-like in terms of handling a large amount of traffic. If or when this happens, I'm hoping the basic structure of YaBB can be kept intact. After all, the forum itself is nice looking, and when it's on a good server, it otherwise works pretty well; that is, as long as there aren't too many members, evidently, or a large amount of traffic.

One of the frustrating things for me is how terribly slow this particular YaBB forum operates, which is reportedly because of the limitations of the Sourceforge server. I guess this has something to do with file locking. Then again, the Sourceforge site itself seems to operate pretty fast as long as you're not using this forum.

Unfortunately, this forum as it is on this server is YaBB's showcase to the world.  Embarrassed


  

Morning, noon, or night, have a great one!

Note: This forum doesn't allow for us to freely edit our posts or topics to make corrections as needed, so please remember to look for subsequent posts if you see any mistakes or outdated information. Sorry for the inconvenience.
Back to top
IP Logged
 
depablo
YaBB Moderators
YaBB Next Team
Beta Testers
***
Offline



Posts: 577
Location: UK

None
Re: YaBB v SMF2 performance
Reply #4 - Jan 20th, 2012 at 8:23am
Post Tools
Bill Myers wrote on Jan 19th, 2012 at 8:20pm:
Unfortunately, this forum as it is on this server is YaBB's showcase to the world.  Embarrassed

So frustrating waiting on page loads, most times I just leave as I cannot be bothered waiting.

  

Taking a peek behind the mask Wink
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Boy
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 352
Location: UK
Re: YaBB v SMF2 performance
Reply #5 - Jan 20th, 2012 at 3:31pm
Post Tools
Bill Myers wrote on Jan 19th, 2012 at 8:20pm:
Unfortunately, this forum as it is on this server is YaBB's showcase to the world

Indeed, and I'm sure many here would have seen some of my public frustrations about the showcase site being hosted on a server that, effectively, can't run it.  I know at least 2 people with the capacity to host it, in addition to myself, have offered to, which is equally frustrating that its still here.


Grrrrr.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
The Boy
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 352
Location: UK
Re: YaBB v SMF2 performance
Reply #6 - Jan 20th, 2012 at 3:38pm
Post Tools
To answer Bill Myers comment about capacity...

YaBB performed very well up to around a certain threshold, upon where the underlying OS, Linux in my case, started to struggle badly with the shear number of files in that directory. Short of having spare RAM to get Linux to cache every YaBB file (unfeasible), it kind of cascaded.

Search was always an issue, even before this, as opening 100,000 files to search through is always going to end in tears.

Once you get to a certain point, you really do need the optimised data handling of a proper RDBMS. This is when current iterations of YaBB struggle, although YaBB is hard to beat on smaller sites -  I suspect SMF v YaBB would possibly be in YaBB's favour with, for example, only 1000 threads.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Bill Myers
God Member
Beta Testers
*****
Offline



Posts: 1,713
Location: Los Angeles

YaBB 2.4
Re: YaBB v SMF2 performance
Reply #7 - Jan 20th, 2012 at 3:54pm
Post Tools

Thanks very much for that information. The forum I'm operating is smaller, and it's evidently less of a drag on resources than yours is/was, but for us at least at the size we are, YaBB 2.4 has performed quite nicely. We're on a a UNIX server with Linux, and we thankfully have a great staff who keeps the server running quite fast.

  

Morning, noon, or night, have a great one!

Note: This forum doesn't allow for us to freely edit our posts or topics to make corrections as needed, so please remember to look for subsequent posts if you see any mistakes or outdated information. Sorry for the inconvenience.
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Corey Chapman
YaBB Administrator
*****
Offline



Posts: 10,038
Location: Rock Hill, South Carolina

None
Re: YaBB v SMF2 performance
Reply #8 - Jan 21st, 2012 at 10:58pm
Post Tools
I am still waiting on Open Source Lab to tell me whether or not YaBB was approved to be sponsored by them.  If I don't get a response soon, I'll have to give up.  It has been almost 2 months.

As far as two of the offers from YaBB users that I have received for hosting, I have contacted them and not gotten a reply.  If someone wants to provide an offer that they will actually live up to, please PM me.  I am ready to look at more options.
  

Back to top
IP Logged
 
Elfen
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 452
Re: YaBB v SMF2 performance
Reply #9 - Jan 23rd, 2012 at 10:17pm
Post Tools
You want a wicked fast YaBB System? Really Wicked? Faster than Google search responses? Really?

Of course, its like a high performance vehicle, which requires constant attention to it!

A Solid State Drive (NOT A COMPACT FLASH OR USB STICK DRIVE, BUT A REAL $1000+ SOLID STATE DRIVE LIKE THOSE ON THE MARS ROVERS!) is your answer.

In an experiment I done in 2005 -2008 for a budding but now dead search engine company, there is no way that a typical had drive in a standard PC is going to dish out 15GB of data, get is processed and spit out results in less than a quarter of a second. ITS IMPOSSIBLE! NO WAY ITS GOING TO HAPPEN!

So How does Google does it? Solid State Drive Systems.

Now, you have to have 2 drives for this. A normal drive for your system and software. A Solid State Drive for the Web Server folders and data.

Do this, and YaBB will run so wickly fast, you wonder why no one ever thought of it before. In truth, its a secret the big companies dont want you to know.

With a Solid State Drive, you can support hundreds of users online with YaBB, keep replies and page call routines as fast if it was on a local system with 1 user on it, and the system wont crash because the had drive is overloaded.

It is not that I'm selling hard drive systems, I wish I were! But in seeing too many people saying "YaBB is too slow!, bites me on the rear end. I dont know what some of you people are doing, but I never had a slow YaBB system other than 2.1 when it had a IP recall glitch, and that was fixed very quickly here!

If you guy want more info, PM me or email me. While you're at it, please donate to the "Elfen Needs to Pay His College Loans!"
« Last Edit: Jan 24th, 2012 at 4:53am by Elfen »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Boy
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 352
Location: UK
Re: YaBB v SMF2 performance
Reply #10 - Jan 25th, 2012 at 7:29pm
Post Tools
Elfen - SSD didn't give me a huge boost, I did try one. Admittedly, it was SATA not SAS, and was plugged into onboard SATA, rather than my HP P400 controller as with ESXi, you have to have an outage to reconfigure the P400  Angry

The SSD was faster, definately, but simply didn't resolve my search issue. YaBB is just too inefficient for search on larger sites - opening each thread, and going through it, closing it, opening the next. With nigh on 100k threads, thats 100k files it needs to open, seach, close sequentially.

SSD is also unsuitable for long term storage, as they are NAND based. NAND is prone to bit flip.


I very much doubt Google make much use of SSD, they tend to go down the line of cheap and cheerful hardware, just use more of it.

Not many large websites make extensive use of SSD - RAM caching is used more, along with accelerators.  Even our large SANs tend to only use SSD for transient data, soon hooked off to traditional platters for longer term storage.



Part of the reason for this thread was to show how, on a large YaBB, a SQL backend compares to a flatfile backend on identical hardware.  Finally able to answer that question that comes up so often Wink.  And the answer is 3 to 4 times faster Wink
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
zcybjin
YaBB Newcomer
*
Offline



Posts: 2
Re: YaBB v SMF2 performance
Reply #11 - Jun 30th, 2012 at 1:40am
Post Tools
The Boy wrote on Jan 20th, 2012 at 3:38pm:
...
YaBB performed very well up to around a certain threshold, upon where the underlying OS, Linux in my case, started to struggle badly with the shear number of files in that directory.
...
Search was always an issue, even before this, as opening 100,000 files to search through is always going to end in tears.
...

It is said that the ext3 file system Linux typically uses are not very fast when there are too many files in the same directory.  Is it possible that your performance problem stems from that?  If so, changing to another file system good at handling huge number of files, like XFS or JFS,  might be another way to speed up YaBB.

As to search, I think one of the alternatives is to use Google instead, but you lose the ability to apply additional constraints like posting date, username, etc.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Elfen
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 452
Re: YaBB v SMF2 performance
Reply #12 - Jul 7th, 2012 at 2:32pm
Post Tools
zcybjin wrote on Jun 30th, 2012 at 1:40am:
It is said that the ext3 file system Linux typically uses are not very fast when there are too many files in the same directory.  Is it possible that your performance problem stems from that?  If so, changing to another file system good at handling huge number of files, like XFS or JFS,  might be another way to speed up YaBB.

As to search, I think one of the alternatives is to use Google instead, but you lose the ability to apply additional constraints like posting date, username, etc.

This is true of any system, especially Windows. Everyone should notice that when they fill up their hard drives to 75% of capacity, the OS starts to slow down. This is not an OS Issue but a hardware issue, because the hard drive has to sort through its loaded buffers what file you what, and if your directory of full of files, it begins to slow down.

The efficiency of an OS is only as good as the hardware it is on. You can have the crappiest system on the best hardware and get results that are great or you can get the best OS on the crappiest hardware and get crappy results.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Boy
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 352
Location: UK
Re: YaBB v SMF2 performance
Reply #13 - Jul 9th, 2012 at 7:20pm
Post Tools
zcybjin wrote on Jun 30th, 2012 at 1:40am:
The Boy wrote on Jan 20th, 2012 at 3:38pm:
...
YaBB performed very well up to around a certain threshold, upon where the underlying OS, Linux in my case, started to struggle badly with the shear number of files in that directory.
...
Search was always an issue, even before this, as opening 100,000 files to search through is always going to end in tears.
...

It is said that the ext3 file system Linux typically uses are not very fast when there are too many files in the same directory.  Is it possible that your performance problem stems from that?  If so, changing to another file system good at handling huge number of files, like XFS or JFS,  might be another way to speed up YaBB.

As to search, I think one of the alternatives is to use Google instead, but you lose the ability to apply additional constraints like posting date, username, etc.

With tweaking in the mount options, ext3 can be as fast as any other. Diasabling atime and (more dangerously) journalling can increase ext3 performance.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Bill Myers
God Member
Beta Testers
*****
Offline



Posts: 1,713
Location: Los Angeles

YaBB 2.4
Re: YaBB v SMF2 performance
Reply #14 - Jul 10th, 2012 at 12:58am
Post Tools
Regarding this topic of registration problems (locked as of this posting), which changed to a topic about YaBB's unfortunate, and continuing problems that remain unresolved despite many months of requests to fix what are actually easy fixes, I noticed just today that a prominent YaBB member has evidently made the switch to another forum. And this is a guy who's actually written modifications to improve YaBB's software, which I might add has been rejected -  and yet used with much gratitude by YaBB admins outside of YaBB's management.

Happily however, back in February of this year I think it was, Corey made mention of other YaBB mod writers because he supports what they've created, and he wants to include those mods as part of Yabb's next generation of software.

Way to go Corey! Smiley  I just wish you had the time to fix the problems in this forum since you're the only guy who currently has that capability with your full access to YaBB's files.

But I digressRoll Eyes

So if that conversion is successful, another one of our members will have bitten the dust (improper slang used here).

Of course, we all know that the grass is never really greener on the other side; not really; but even if it is, that doesn't mean switching to a better product is the best thing to do. But maybe in due time, none of us will have that choice to make.

Chew on that for a bit.  Cry

Unlike this forum, which kind of only gets new registrations from spammers, that other forum is currently averaging 103.28 new registrants a day. Average posts per day? 1,026.51 (if accurate, both of those figures are current as of this post).

Good for them, but I worry about YaBB because there doesn't seem to be the will to improve this forum let alone develop YaBB's software any further. It's no wonder that we don't have the same kind of activity the other forum has.

My worries are for selfish reasons because I've been using YaBB since 2002, and I really don't want it to die out. Unfortunately, as things are now, my participation is barely tolerated in this forum, and the only support I get is from its members; not from YaBB's management.

This is a horrible way for YaBB to carry on its business of support if that's the term still being used. It's no wonder that good people keep jumping ship.

I guess it's a good thing that I can swim just in case I get pushed off.  Smiley

By the way, and this is not an afterthought, but to those members who have given me your support and understanding about my efforts to improve YaBB, thank you, thank you, thank you!

Meanwhile, until it's no longer possible, I'll continue to see YaBB as if the glass of half full.

  

Morning, noon, or night, have a great one!

Note: This forum doesn't allow for us to freely edit our posts or topics to make corrections as needed, so please remember to look for subsequent posts if you see any mistakes or outdated information. Sorry for the inconvenience.
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo
 
  « Board Index ‹ Board  ^Top