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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Segnette.com fishing forum (Read 25,553 times)
Bill Myers
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Re: Segnette.com fishing forum
Reply #55 - May 15th, 2012 at 6:34am
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Good to have you back!  Smiley

As you already know, and really only because I still can't get past the 500 error of installing a new YaBB forum, I have a couple of SMF test forums still running. Ironically, I'm using those forums to help me figure out my installation problems with YaBB.

Go figure! Roll Eyes

In any case, in areas of customizing, I agree that nothing takes the place of YaBB. Besides, for me personally, having used YaBB since 2002, I really don't want to change to another forum.

The only way I would leave YaBB is if YaBB left me.  Smiley
  

Morning, noon, or night, have a great one!

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westwegoman
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Re: Segnette.com fishing forum
Reply #54 - May 15th, 2012 at 3:16am
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Ok, Ok, Ok.... Please dont scold me. I'm back. Just couldn't handle the change. I have found out the hard way that nothing takes the place of YaBB in the areas of customizing.

Oh and... It feels good to be back!!!  Smiley
  
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Bill Myers
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Re: Segnette.com fishing forum
Reply #53 - May 2nd, 2012 at 5:37pm
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JonB wrote on May 2nd, 2012 at 5:00pm:
As for your server and getting YaBB installed on other domains, my offer to help you get it done remains open. I would basically give you a plan to work from.

Good Luck
Cool

Thanks Jon. I appreciate it.

To be perfectly frank, I'm embarrassed that I've had this problem of a 500 error. I should know better. So I'll figure it out on my own. There's no emergency about it; so no biggie.

As for how coding gets done; whatever; that's above my pay grade.  Wink
  

Morning, noon, or night, have a great one!

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JonB
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Re: Segnette.com fishing forum
Reply #52 - May 2nd, 2012 at 5:00pm
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I probably ought to split this topic, as we are way off track here.

There is no magic bullet to change the way YaBB is installed, other than re-writing it to make it mod_perl compatible. That would eliminate the need for the editing of the shebang lines as I understand it. I'm not a Perl monk, but my understanding is we would need a ground up re-write to make that happen.  I discussed this with Deti prior to his departure, he and I both wanted to fins a way to a universal installer.

As for your server and getting YaBB installed on other domains, my offer to help you get it done remains open. I would basically give you a plan to work from.

Good Luck
Cool
  

I find your lack of faith disturbing.
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Bill Myers
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Reply #51 - May 2nd, 2012 at 4:21pm
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depablo wrote on May 2nd, 2012 at 9:49am:
All good ideas, unfortunately you need people  Wink

People will come if YaBB more clearly shows that it has the will to accept them, honor them, and celebrate their contributions.

Until then, people will go elsewhere as they've been doing for a while now.

Edited:
« Last Edit: May 2nd, 2012 at 4:59pm by Bill Myers »  

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Bill Myers
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Re: Segnette.com fishing forum
Reply #50 - May 2nd, 2012 at 4:18pm
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Jon, eventually I'll figure out how to correct the 500 errors that I'm getting with my YaBB installations. I'm still working on it. Or more accurately, I haven't given it another try in a while. Surely I'll get past my own shortcomings in that regard.

Bottom line: With users like myself who don't have the knowledge that you have about these things, the matter of permissions is hardly trivial. That's what you don't get. You continue to act as if that kind of thing doesn't matter. It does!

What's trivial to you is not trivial to "us."

That's one of the points I'm making; that SMF is easy to install, and YaBB isn't.

SMF gives its users the nicety of self installation, and YaBB doesn't.

SMF comes up with solutions to problems that regular guys like me present, and YaBB instead comes up with excuses.

To be fair, it's not YaBB that gives these excuses; it's you. Please remember that you're pretty much the face of YaBB; at least presently; so what you say, and how you present yourself is important.

I've already seen Corey's "Sneak preview of the Future" and it's terrific. That alone will presumably "fix" the problems of 500 errors, and make YaBB much more user friendly.

I can easily see how YaBB can get back on track, and exceed the success that SMF has been having because they stepped up to the plate to modernize forum software.


Rather than continually giving excuses and reasons as to why this can't be done with YaBB, or why that can't be done with YaBB, my suggestion is to actually listen to us users, and respect what we as a group are saying.

So please, stop with the excuses, continue to offer help as you do, and work on implementing Corey's vision.

I've stuck around because I'm still hopeful about YaBB. So many others have moved on. Do you still wonder why, or will an excuse for that exodus be made as well?

Evidently, SMF had gotten stymied in its development just as YaBB is clearly stymied now. But that can simply be part of YaBB's history; it's past history; not the reason for its demise.

Ultimately, what you or I say is irrelevant. YaBB's future is dependent upon Corey, and evidently him alone. So he's the one who's either going to make or break YaBB; not you or me.

Meanwhile, YaBB will get forked off as it was done with SMF to survive in another incarnation. Then maybe SMF will get forked off in the same fashion. Will either exist 10 years from now? Time will tell.

Life goes on. So does forum software.  Smiley
  

Morning, noon, or night, have a great one!

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JonB
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Re: Segnette.com fishing forum
Reply #49 - May 2nd, 2012 at 3:09pm
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Bill -

I will re-iterate for your benefit - the matter of file permissions for SMF or WordPress is trivial as they only operate in the document root.  BTW, YaBB has the option of creating tar.gz installable archives (but that would not solve 'your' issue vis-a-vis YaBB). 

However - neither of these issues is relevant to the ISE 500 errors you got. THAT error is a function of permissions on the CGI scripts or their supporting data files that are in .pl format.

I will also point out that you have several times said "I will figure it out myself".  It appears we should not have taken you at your word on that.  Wink

No one knows what went wrong as we don't have a full picture of your efforts.

If you would like me to step you through getting it working, you have only to ask.

Cool
  

I find your lack of faith disturbing.
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depablo
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Re: Segnette.com fishing forum
Reply #48 - May 2nd, 2012 at 9:49am
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All good ideas, unfortunately you need people  Wink
  

Taking a peek behind the mask Wink
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Bill Myers
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Re: Segnette.com fishing forum
Reply #47 - May 2nd, 2012 at 7:34am
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As I've pretty much mentioned, the main reason that I ended up installing SMF was because I was unable to get past YaBB's dreaded 500 error when I tried installing it on a 2nd domain, and then on a 3rd domain.

Interestingly, SMF is so thorough with its help when errors are detected during their self installation process that it gave me some clues about why the installation of YaBB produced 500 errors for me. Both the 2nd and 3rd domains now have an SMF forum instead of YaBB.

What's ironic is that YaBB's own support forum produced a 500 error earlier on Tuesday when I tried to access it (on 5/1/2012). I just figured somebody was making some changes, and they'd get it fixed soon enough.
YaBB could have used a variant of SMF's self installation mod to fix that 500 error.  Smiley

On our most popular site, I still haven't upgraded the YaBB forum we have to SMF, but I guess that will be inevitable at some point.

My use of YaBB for ten years was a nice run.  Wink


For future reference when YaBB moves forward with its newest version, as I presume it will, I think it could benefit hugely with its equivalent of a self installation mod that mirrors the one SMF uses.

Come on! SMF started their run by mirroring YaBB for goodness sakes. So it's only fair that they give back in the spirit of open source cooperation.

I know. There are technical issues to consider, but YaBB has smart people behind it.  Smiley

Additionally, it would wise to have self installation mods that could be a seamless part of YaBB's next version so that admins could easily keep their forums updated with the best that YaBB has to offer.

Include portals to integrate with the forum.

Include register-friendly anti-spam mods.

Include all sorts of mods that can easily be written to work within YaBB's core; it's base.

Include the integration of social media.

And while you're at it, include the kitchen sink.  Smiley


On the subject of self installation, what's quite helpful with SMF's version of it, and what could be part of YaBB's installation process with some clever modding, is that specific instructions are given for any errors that occur.

In other words, if I don't make a particular file writable, or a series of files have incorrect permissions, with SMF I'm presented with specifics about what I've done wrong. This even includes the file or folder names that need to be corrected.

Usually SMF can automatically do this for you, but in the event that there's a problem with the automation, those specifics are provided for you.

As I've mentioned before. YaBB can do this, and more as long as there's the will to do it.  Smiley
  

Morning, noon, or night, have a great one!

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westwegoman
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Re: Segnette.com fishing forum
Reply #46 - May 2nd, 2012 at 4:56am
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Not gone for good. Working on another site that will stay with YaBB as it's forum. I'll just have to see how it goes. I still think YaBB is a great forum and hopefully will come up to where the others are.

Ill still be around here lurking. You are a group of great people.
  
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Bill Myers
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Re: Segnette.com fishing forum
Reply #45 - May 2nd, 2012 at 12:32am
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Derek Barnstorm wrote on May 1st, 2012 at 11:18pm:
Another one bites the dust. Sad

http://www.segnette.com/community/index.php

Not necessarily. At least not fully. Smiley

The YaBB version of his Segnette Fishing Forum is still around to possibly be revived if/when YaBB gets around to overtaking SMF.

With your skills, I have to say that you'd be an incredible asset for SMF if you ever went over to the dark side to mod for them. No intended slam on SMF by referring to them as being on the dark side.

As I understand it, SMF's intention is to build upon a core that is meant to function as a foundation for all mods that are written for it.

Furthermore, like they've been able to do with what amounts to self-installation of its forum, they're reportedly going to be doing the same kind of thing for mod writing.

I know. Pretty wild! Maybe I'll even be able to write some mods.  Roll Eyes

But papa YaBB can still zoom past baby SMF if there's the will to do it.  Wink
  

Morning, noon, or night, have a great one!

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Derek Barnstorm
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Re: Segnette.com fishing forum
Reply #44 - May 1st, 2012 at 11:18pm
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Another one bites the dust. Sad

http://www.segnette.com/community/index.php
« Last Edit: May 1st, 2012 at 11:18pm by Derek Barnstorm »  
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Bill Myers
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Re: Segnette.com fishing forum
Reply #43 - Apr 29th, 2012 at 5:14pm
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Sorry, but the normal quote javascript function seems to be on a temporary glitch for me, so ...

JonB wrote:
Quote:
I won't get overly technical on this, but that ease-of-installation issue is quite complicated and has roots in the choice of the core programming language.

Thanks for the explanation. I really appreciate it. This helps to clear things up for me that I kind of knew about, but which I obviously don't specifically know.

On that note, while I appreciate Corey's leadership even though he's kind of an absentee landlord of YaBB, having JonB, Dandello, and the other regular experts/developers with YaBB gives me yet another reason to prefer YaBB's forum over other forum software.

Without this invaluable support, I would have left YaBB a long time ago.

I stand corrected in terms of self-installation, at least how I saw it.  Roll Eyes

Because of my error about self-installation with YaBB, what would help us normal folk would be an easy to read 1-2-3 step guideline to baby us through the installation process. We kind of have that now, but it's without any real answers or guidelines when errors occur.

For instance, with the 500 error, while there is some explanation for this, unlike SMF which has specific information about errors, and what to do about them precisely, YaBB leaves one hanging. You either know how to fix it, or you don't. Too bad!

Furthermore, like it is when mods are being installed, SMF will actually correct the errors for you if FTP access is fully given. And/or an actual list of every file that needs attention is presented for your review, and specific information is given about what to do next.

So in the end with YaBB, the reality is that only people with an above average intelligence of perl will be able to install YaBB's software. This is why so many people get stuck on that 500 error, and move on to other software.

This is also why people who initially installed YaBB, and who want to upgrade to a newer version move on to other forums. The upgrade process can seem daunting. SMF makes that process easy with their version of self-installation.

Solution? Put together a more thorough HTML-driven "installation manual" if you will that novices like me can use to install YaBB.


JonB also wrote:
Quote:
As to many of the other very valid points made in this extended topic "I have a plan" (which I am making some YouTube videos to explain)

This would be very helpful. Very!  Smiley


Bottom line: YaBB can be the greatest forum software on the planet, and I personally think it is, but if the majority of its potential users can't get it installed, or current users can't get it upgraded, YaBB will never be used on a large scale, and appreciated for what it is; a great forum.

Edited:
Edited to correct a typo.
« Last Edit: Apr 29th, 2012 at 5:17pm by Bill Myers »  

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JonB
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Re: Segnette.com fishing forum
Reply #42 - Apr 29th, 2012 at 10:07am
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I won't get overly technical on this, but that ease-of-installation issue is quite complicated and has roots in the choice of the core programming language.

Although both Perl and PHP are 'scripting languages', there is a significant difference. Perl is a general purpose language (like C or Basic variants) and PHP really isn't.  Perl is the core language for many Control Panels and Linux/Unix administrative tools and utilities. It doesn't need  a web browser to execute. But as a 'web scripting language', Perl usually runs as an executable under a protocol called CGI (there are two exceptions to that -- ModPerl and ISAPI).  It really means you are running a 'program' on a remote server, NOT pulling apart HTML pages. I won't get into "what are .php pages then???" beyond saying "They are HTML pages with little or no HTML".  

This effectively means that YaBB must be installed differently. The location of the Perl executable is not the same on all hosted systems, nor is the location of the 'DocumentRoot' standardized. They have to be supplied by the user, AND the YaBB 'launch files' have to be edited before Setup.pl can be run (that's the 'shebang' line issue). This is a huge impediment to creating a universal installer.

PHP does not face the same challenge. as it works  exclusively in the 'DocumentRoot' area of a server. This is because PHP began life as a language that was embedded n HTML pages -- which only exist (effectively) in the 'content' area of a webserver. Indirectly that is also why most PHP 'apps' are integrated with a SQL database (that will require some pondering  Wink ).  

I can tell you that among Perl based systems, ours is a very good installer. For a reasonable comparison, look at the docs for installing MovableType (a WordPress competitor written in Perl)  -- or ask Dandello  Roll Eyes

http://www.movabletype.org/documentation/installation/

BTW, MovableType (originally from SixApart) predates WordPress just as YaBB predates SMF and InVision.  I guess I should say I have installed/run/modified all the products mentioned here.

I'm not saying a better installer is not do-able, I'm explaining why its a different case than for PHP based projects like SMF or Wordpress (for instance).

Good Luck
Cool

Edited:
As to many of the other very valid points made in this extended topic "I have a plan" (which I am making some YouTube videos to explain)
« Last Edit: Apr 29th, 2012 at 12:39pm by JonB »  

I find your lack of faith disturbing.
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Bill Myers
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Re: Segnette.com fishing forum
Reply #41 - Apr 29th, 2012 at 7:50am
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depablo wrote on Apr 29th, 2012 at 6:36am:
SMF has an option in the admin centre which allows a standard menu system in the admin centre.

Basically a little arrow that you click and it changes the layout.

Wow! That was easy. Thanks.  Wink
  

Morning, noon, or night, have a great one!

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