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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) That would have to be a "Corey" Decision - (Read 5,358 times)
Bill Myers
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Re: That would have to be a
Reply #24 - Apr 4th, 2012 at 6:03pm
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Derek Barnstorm wrote on Apr 4th, 2012 at 1:16am:
I was just curious Bill, that's all. In another thread you said that you'd had no spam at all - including human spam.

Anyway, I'm saying nothing else on it. It's like a broken record.

I don't remember saying it that way, but if I did, I mispoke the obvious. Sorry. Roll Eyes Wink
Edited:
Typo corrected.

On the note of us going back and forth on this, like I think you may have mentioned yourself about your frustrations with me, I'm reminded of why I dropped out of this forum many years ago.

At one point, one of the moderators had banned me. But to be fair, someone above him reversed the ban in quick fashion once a review of our posts showed that they were nothing more than a difference of opinion, i.e., I hadn't actually done anything wrong . He obviously had become a bully about how he moderated the forum.

While it's not fair, moderators need to shower a higher responsibility of presenting themselves versus the general public who are in essence a "customer."

You know the saying; "The customer is always right," which is nonsense, but that's how a business needs to be run; and so do does a public entity like Facebook, Twitter, and YaBB.

Ironically, one of the things that the moderator had gotten upset about was my defense of others who had been banned for nothing more than asking questions, and not being as appropriate as they could be about asking their questions.

Some of those webmasters came to me so that I could post for them, and in turn, get the answers they were seeking for problems they were having with YaBB. That is, if I couldn't help them myself.

Speaking out on behalf of banned members is probably one of the other reasons I got banned. But we had others who were supporting us, so all of us still had access; just obviously not with any given banned membership.

I stated the obvious, that YaBB was not very user friendly to webmasters who sought support. In fact, it wasn't uncommon for "support staff" to deride a webmaster for not having the same amount of knowledge that they had; basically telling them with distaste that they had no business operating a YaBB forum if they didn't know what they were doing.

That was then; this is now.

Thankfully, only uncomfortable banter goes back and forth versus outright inappropriate behavior. Either that, or those of us who are going back and forth with stuff that should probably be dropped have thicker skins now.

But it does bring up an interesting possibility regarding the difficulty that YaBB is having about attracting developers to work on a new version of YaBB.

If developers are treated with disrespect as some webmasters had been treated when they came here for help, then that would make for an unfriendly workplace that could keep developers away.

In any case, again, that was then, and this is now.

Hopefully, the tarnished reputation that YaBB had, and still has with perception because of bow it previously operated, will grow into a much more supportive community all the way around.

Time will tell.
« Last Edit: Apr 5th, 2012 at 2:54am by Bill Myers »  

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Derek Barnstorm
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Re: That would have to be a
Reply #23 - Apr 4th, 2012 at 1:16am
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I was just curious Bill, that's all. In another thread you said that you'd had no spam at all - including human spam.

Anyway, I'm saying nothing else on it. It's like a broken record.
  
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Bill Myers
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Re: That would have to be a
Reply #22 - Apr 4th, 2012 at 12:36am
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Derek Barnstorm wrote on Apr 3rd, 2012 at 7:02pm:
But if ggn's hack is stopping every single spammer, then how come you need Admin Approval anyway? Undecided

To again make this point, I've chosen Admin approval in our forum to stop the handful of hu-bots who try to register. As I've already mentioned, out of the approximately 300,000+ spam registrations that have been attempted as of about a week ago to date, not a single spam-bot registration has gotten through to the next step of admin approval.

The remaining 8 or so hu-bots that tried to register were stopped because of admin approval, thank you YaBB!
The anti-spam hack that ggn authored works wonderfully.  Smiley


Derek Barnstorm wrote on Apr 3rd, 2012 at 7:02pm:
Bill Myers wrote on Apr 3rd, 2012 at 6:39pm:
because as you point out, spam in this forum really isn't much of a problem

Huh? You've just spent the last two or three days insisting how terrible it is. Shocked

To once again clarify the actual point I was making, it's terrible for YaBB's own community support forum to allow any spam posts to be made. There's no excuse for it. I would even say it's embarrassing. Very embarrasing.

But what does my humble opinion matter? Oh, right. It doesn't matter.  Roll Eyes

Here's an opinion you can respect: Look at how Merv managed to stop spam from being posted in his forum (referenced here).

In other words, spam can be stopped cold if you so choose. You should know. After all, you authored what's evidently a terrific anti-spam tool. So the question remains, why hasn't this forum utilized it? If they did, they might not even need admin approval.

They won't until they've tried, and they haven't even tried.  Huh
  

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westwegoman
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Re: That would have to be a
Reply #21 - Apr 3rd, 2012 at 9:21pm
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For what my 2 cents is worth....

My opinion is when a person registers in a support forum, they usually want to post a question at that moment because of a problem they have. They will not want to wait for admin's to approve it for them to post their question.

I used to have a big problem with spam on my forum. I really didnt want to go the route of admin approval just for the reason as mentioned before, most visitors don't care for it.

I used captcha, that didn't work. They eventially got by it. When the spam fianally overwhelmed me, I went searching and found the great anti-spam question mod by Derek Barnstorm. I jumped on it. I deleted all the questions from the mod and added one simple question about my area and implimented the spam fruits just as a extra bit. I have yet to have a spammer get by it. Im still not sure how it has worked completely... But it did.

Now, I know that only works on my forum because my forum is centered on locals in my area. The main thing was, it stopped all those human spammers from other countries because most wouldn't be able to identify the state and kept me from having to even think of admin approvals. If for some reason in the future this no longer works, I will find another way to stop it.

Until then..... Merv 1, spammers 0.  Grin
« Last Edit: Apr 3rd, 2012 at 9:24pm by WestwegoMan »  
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Derek Barnstorm
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Re: That would have to be a
Reply #20 - Apr 3rd, 2012 at 7:02pm
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Bill Myers wrote on Apr 3rd, 2012 at 6:39pm:
I miss the days when anybody could sign up for a membership, and post in our forum as soon as they wanted versus having to wait for their membership to be approved.

But if ggn's hack is stopping every single spammer, then how come you need Admin Approval anyway? Undecided

Bill Myers wrote on Apr 3rd, 2012 at 6:39pm:
because as you point out, spam in this forum really isn't much of a problem

Huh? You've just spent the last two or three days insisting how terrible it is. Shocked
« Last Edit: Apr 3rd, 2012 at 7:14pm by Derek Barnstorm »  
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Bill Myers
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Re: That would have to be a
Reply #19 - Apr 3rd, 2012 at 6:39pm
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Jon, we simply have a difference of opinion; that's all.

Bottom line: I understand your reasoning, and I actually support it, especially because as you point out, spam in this forum really isn't much of a problem. In this case, my opinion doesn't matter, and quite frankly, it shouldn't. Besides, you're always good at getting rid of the spam, which I'm kind of guessing you like to do, and regulars here know this, so the spam ends up being a relatively minor annoyance.

It is kind of amusing, and ironic, however, that spam continues to get posted in this forum even though there are very intelligent people operating the place, and yet, in forums like the one I operate, regular guys like me can keep the spam out by implementing some very simple anti-spam modifications or edits.

Go figureSmiley


Last bit of food for thought if it matters to Corey since he's actually the one making the decisions about how this forum operates (and he's obviously in agreement with you):

Especially regarding webmasters who visit this forum to see how YaBB is supported, and how it's own community support forum is operated, it may be disillusioning for them to see a bunch of spam littering up the place, presuming you haven't been online to swat it out.

First impressions can mean a lot.

If it's any consolation, if I were a 1st-time visitor here needing help with a problem in my YaBB forum, having my membership automatically approved would be a big relief versus having to wait.

As for any spam that hasn't been swatted away by you, I don't think I'd be focused on being bothered by it. Instead, I'd be focused on getting help for my problem.

I do miss the days when our forum was open to guests who could post without having a membership. We had many more posts that way.

Spammers ruined that option.

I miss the days when anybody could sign up for a membership, and post in our forum as soon as they wanted versus having to wait for their membership to be approved.

Spammers ruined that option, too.

I'm very grateful to the newer versions of YaBB that allow us webmasters to more effectively keep spam out of our forums. Otherwise, I would have had to shutter our forum a long time ago, and relied on Facebook and Twitter to allow for more active visitor participation.

When it comes down to it, YaBB rules!  Smiley
  

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JonB
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Re: That would have to be a
Reply #18 - Apr 3rd, 2012 at 10:17am
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Bill, I have heard your arguments and reasoning.

At this moment, this discussion has ceased being fruitful, at least for me.  I do not support going to admin approval, its a 'worse' alternative to an occasional cleanup.  This same discussion has been repeated on another 'Project Forum' where I am a GM, and we reached basically the same conclusions the YaBB group has made.  People who genuinely need help would be reliant on me (or Corey) 'getting around to it'.  Unacceptable.  Ditto increasing the post limits or the 'speed bump', the negatives outweigh the positives.  Zero tolerance is ALWAYS an unattainable goal, as anyone with a math background would tell you.

A look in the Spam Collection center, tells me how few incursions we really have and speaking for myself - "its tiny".

End of discussion on my part.

Wink
« Last Edit: Apr 3rd, 2012 at 10:38am by JonB »  

I find your lack of faith disturbing.
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Bill Myers
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Re: That would have to be a
Reply #17 - Apr 3rd, 2012 at 3:57am
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Edited:
As for contributing, I think I've helped a number of people with their use of YaBB. But that's neither here nor there.

The bottom line with me is that I will applaud another's good work, and promote it when I can. I've certainly done that with ggn's hack. I've also supported the anti-spam mods even though I don't yet have the knowledge to use them myself.


Derek Barnstorm wrote on Apr 3rd, 2012 at 1:26am:
Bill Myers wrote on Apr 3rd, 2012 at 1:01am:
On that note since there's no obvious concern about spam being posted online, why not allow non-member guests to post comments? After all, if they post spam, those posts can be deleted later on when a moderator checks things out. This is pretty much the way things are now.

Sorry Bill, but that's a really silly to say. If there was no concern for spam, then I wouldn't have spent hours and hours making anti-spam mods would I? What have you done yourself? I've spent a considerable amount of my time researching spam for YaBB, and I don't even run a forum myself.

You're fully aware of the problems within YaBB and the lack of devs, so I don't really see where this is going unless you can directly help.

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand your frustrations and somewhat agree, but like I say, we are all fully aware of the problems - and you should be more than most.

Circles... now I remember why I had to stay away for a while. Cheesy

I meant that to be silly. That was the point.  Wink

Also, please note that I'm not really directing anything specific at you; not intentionally. I usually mean a plural you when I'm commenting.

But on the note of your contributions, I applaud them. In fact, it kind of annoys me that this forum won't avail itself of the help you've given.

It's all kind of comical anyway. I mean, the obvious truth is that this forum has the tools to stop hu-bots from posting. It simply chooses not to use them.

Like I quoted, You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink."

« Last Edit: Apr 3rd, 2012 at 4:01am by Bill Myers »  

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Bill Myers
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Re: That would have to be a
Reply #16 - Apr 3rd, 2012 at 3:44am
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JonB wrote on Apr 3rd, 2012 at 1:44am:
...

As I said some months ago - you come up with a tool that can weed out human spammers, and we can all make some money.

...

The tool is called "trying."  Wink

Until an admin has tried to stop hu-bots after effectively stopping spam-bots, they won't know how often this will have to be done.

When I last checked, out of the approximately 300,000+ registration attempts in our forum by what clearly turned out to be spam-bots, only a small handful of actual hu-bots tried to register.

Because of what "everyone" had been telling me, I was fully expecting hundreds of hu-bot registrations after the spam-bots were stopped. Not true at all. I'm still scratching my head on that one. Go figure.

So instead of having to delete a few dozen spam posts every other day or so as I had been doing, I simply needed to recognize, and deny the hu-bot registrations.

Denying hu-bot registrations versus having to delete spam posts. Priceless.  Roll Eyes

Edited:
Corrected a mistake in my thinking.

Yes, I need a lot of corrections.  Roll Eyes

« Last Edit: Apr 3rd, 2012 at 3:46am by Bill Myers »  

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Bill Myers
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Re: That would have to be a
Reply #15 - Apr 3rd, 2012 at 3:28am
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JonB, like Derek pointed out, he has a way to effectively stop hu-bots. I believe him.

I've been able to stop hu-bots by implementing admin approval. No biggie.

End of case? Hardly. It's only the end of this case if this forum continues to allow spammers to post spam. With effective tools, it really is that simple.  Wink

Think about it. How is it that I'm able to stop hu-bots when this forum evidently can't? That's illogical. The brains here are bigger, and this YaBB beta version seems more robust.

This is of course a rhetorical question because the answer is obvious: This forum can stop hu-bots if it so chooses.

Jon, I'm only guessing, but my guess is that you don't allow hu-bots to post in your forum, right? If so, then step it up, and do the same for this forum that you do for your own forum. The only thing that's lacking here is the lack of will.


"Since you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink ..."

To anyone who thinks they can't stop spam in your own forum, have you tried to stop it, or have you just given up without trying because some people tell you it can't be stopped?

Have a little faith, and follow the example of others who have stopped the spam in their forums. You can stop it, too!  Wink
This is the good news; spam can be stopped cold!  Smiley

End of case? Only if plural you end it.  Wink


On a serious note, at one point I too thought that spam couldn't be stopped in a YaBB forum. I mean, that's what people were claiming. Thank goodness I kept looking for a solution, and thank goodness that ggn here in this forum came up with a very effective anti-spam hack for the spam-bots that makes admin approval for the hu-bots a snap.
Smiley
  

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Derek Barnstorm
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Re: That would have to be a
Reply #14 - Apr 3rd, 2012 at 2:03am
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The StopForumSpam Mod will stop human spammers, but of cause, only if they have been added to the database.
  
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JonB
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Re: That would have to be a
Reply #13 - Apr 3rd, 2012 at 1:44am
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Bill - I would like to point out the obvious to you.

We DO NOT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH SPAMBOTS DOING BAD STUFF. (other than eating some bandwidth and CPU cycles.)

The ONLY problem we have is with HUMAN SPAMMERS. AND Human spammers who can read/write the host language can beat any tool you will come up with -- that is the definition of the issue.  Let me repeat myself -- robot-registrations are not an issue here at the moment.

Therefore none of that set of tools (CAPTCHA fixes, SPAM Fruits or Derek's excellent Anti-SPAM questions) will gain us anything.  Those tools ONLY reduce robo-registrations.

As I said some months ago - you come up with a tool that can weed out human spammers, and we can all make some money.  Remember the Turing Test?  Well, XRumer can't beat it...  and that is the real basic cause of what the issue is...  Human spammers that CAN pass a Turing Test.  Effectively that is what each of those tools you have gone to great pains to point to really is -- a simple Turing test.

End of case.

Wink
  

I find your lack of faith disturbing.
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Derek Barnstorm
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Re: That would have to be a
Reply #12 - Apr 3rd, 2012 at 1:26am
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Bill Myers wrote on Apr 3rd, 2012 at 1:01am:
On that note since there's no obvious concern about spam being posted online, why not allow non-member guests to post comments? After all, if they post spam, those posts can be deleted later on when a moderator checks things out. This is pretty much the way things are now.

Sorry Bill, but that's a really silly to say. If there was no concern for spam, then I wouldn't have spent hours and hours making anti-spam mods would I? What have you done yourself? I've spent a considerable amount of my time researching spam for YaBB, and I don't even run a forum myself.

You're fully aware of the problems within YaBB and the lack of devs, so I don't really see where this is going unless you can directly help.

Don't get me wrong, I fully understand your frustrations and somewhat agree, but like I say, we are all fully aware of the problems - and you should be more than most.

Circles... now I remember why I had to stay away for a while. Cheesy
  
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Bill Myers
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Re: That would have to be a
Reply #11 - Apr 3rd, 2012 at 1:01am
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Derek Barnstorm wrote on Apr 3rd, 2012 at 12:39am:

Those seem like good solutions. Implementing either or both of them may be beyond my intelligence, but those operating this forum could certainly take this kind of action to stop the spam.

Maybe they'll heed the call. Smiley

Food for thought: Think of how it looks to have a YaBB user come here for help, and they sometimes end up having to scroll through spam just to get to relevant information.

Bottom line: If seeing spam posted in one's forum isn't that big of a deal, then who cares whether or not anti-spam actions are taken?

Thankfully, JonB's relatively quick actions to swat away spammers, and delete their posts makes this forum relatively free from spam. So it's evidently not a concern here. I get that.

My gut tells me if spam was being posted throughout the day, and it numbered in the hundreds versus a few dozen here and there on any given day, this forum would take action to stop it. It's evidently not bad enough to take action. So again, I get that.

Still, to allow any spam posts in YaBB's own community support forum seems; well, it just seems wrong.  Roll Eyes

On that note since there's no obvious concern about spam being posted online, why not allow non-member guests to post comments? After all, if they post spam, those posts can be deleted later on when a moderator checks things out. This is pretty much the way things are now.

Meanwhile ... we'll just have to expect the spam, and know that JonB will be swatting it away in relatively quick fashion.
Way to go JonB! Swat! Swat! Smiley
  

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Derek Barnstorm
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Re: That would have to be a
Reply #10 - Apr 3rd, 2012 at 12:39am
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Bill Myers wrote on Apr 3rd, 2012 at 12:32am:
Choose your solution, but please, at least come up with a solution.

I've already come up with two solutions:

http://www.boardmod.org/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1315522544

http://www.boardmod.org/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1316894374

Wink
  
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